Has MMA popularity helped or hurt the MA Community?

[Andrew Green]

MMA is a crude sport. Nothing more. It is IMO- a sport we can do without.

It is a highly technical and strategic sport.

And don't give me that crap about participants being disrespectful, it's simply not true. At the top level it becomes entertainment as well, and that's all you are seeing. No MMA gym would tolerate that sort of attitude in training as it would lead to constant injuries.

Put TMA in the entertainment realm and the same thing happens. In movies 99% of people that do martial arts are bad guys, of course the good guy always whoops all of them, but I'm not sure the higher percentage of 'bad guys' shows that traditional styles are 'better' in entertainment.

I can also say that I have seen a lot more disrespectful behaviour in 'traditional' events then grappling / mma events. But that is just personal experience.

 

[Shifu Steve]

To be fair, I have seen some gi's and doboks that look like NASCAR driver's gear because they have so many patches, stars and stripes on them.

The silliness of the shorts, sponsor logos not withstanding, is more indicative of western athletics.

Hysterical. It's very true. To be fair to the MMA contingent, there are some very tricked out TMA dojos that shamelessly promote with dragons, weapons, yin yangs and any other symbol they can get their hands on. I'm not talking about an occasional symbol, I have seen these guys with tailor made jackets that stop nothing short at what Daniel described.

I think that in some ways the UFC gets a bad wrap because of issues like this and maybe it's deserved to a degree. However, the idea behind Mixed Martial Arts is a sound idea. There's nothing wrong with being a well rounded fighter and training in different systems. The UFC is a vehicle for promoting so called MMA (which in my opinion means next to nothing since it's not even a real style, just a combination of multiple styles at the discretion of the practitioner) but it's just one organization. The popularity of MMA in general is not a bad thing if it gives us a reason to consider other approaches to Martial Arts. In regards to the flash and the meathead attitude, my opinion is so what...it gives them something more productive to do then bench-press and may give me an occasional sparring partner that will help me prepare for the "roided out maniac in the bar scenario." You gotta watch out for them

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here is a question: why does there have to be a question of TMA vs. MMA anyway?

Kind of silly. MMA is very specific. TMA can be anything from straight up striking, straight up grappling, a mix, straight up weapons, straight up just one weapon, mostly sport, mostly practical, or a combination.

MMA as an athletic event is essentially an open tournament with a rule set that allows for techniques culled from what are mostly traditional arts. That rule set tends to favor a certain mix of techniques.

As far as the MMA gym versus the dojo, people train in what they train in for a reason. The gal at the local taekwondo school who trains with her kids is looking for a different product than what an MMA gym offers and wouldn't be there anyway. The guy at the aikido school who loves the way his art flows and the tranquility it brings to his life probably won't be there either. Both she and he are getting trained in skills that they can use to defend themselves and in an environment that meets their needs.

The guys and gals who trains at the MMA gym, however, have a different set of needs and priorities. Not better or worse; just different.

MMA and TMA have a degree of overlap with regards to student demographic, but for the most part, that overlap is with athletically minded students who are comfortable in either environment, want a strong sportive aspect and will end up in either an MMA gym or a dojo that does a lot of tournament fighting. Some may like both and train at more than one place.

Outside of that overlap, the student demographic is different and those happy in one environment probably weren't considering the other anyway.

Be it MMA or TMA, if it isn't what you want to do, then train in your chosen system and be happy.

Daniel

 

[Balrog]

I voted hurt.

It has now become the "public face" of martial arts. I get people in my school all the time that watched some cage fight and they want to learn how to rip someone's heart out and eat it while it's still beating, that sort of stuff.

We actually were an MMA school long before "modern" MMA. Our students learn Taekwondo as their primary martial art (think college major), but they also get a little cross-training with joint manipulation from aikido, grappling from jiu-jitsu, etc. We're not trying to make them expert in those areas, just exposing them to the areas to make them more well-rounded martial artists (think elective courses in college).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I voted hurt.

It has now become the "public face" of martial arts. I get people in my school all the time that watched some cage fight and they want to learn how to rip someone's heart out and eat it while it's still beating, that sort of stuff.

That is taught in Temple of Doom Federation Dojangs. They call their forms and style of TKD Kali-maa-hon.

The kwan was established before the outbreak of WWII and it is questionable as to whether or not it can legitimately be called taekwondo. Schools that teach it are hard to find, however, as the founder, along with many of his senior students, was killed by some guy in a hat before he could designate succession. The style has suffered from squabbles between his four remaining senior students.

This has resulted in four different TOD federations each claiming direct lineage and teaching authority, though only three are international. The fourth came into existence when one of the four remaining senior students fled to North Korea, and is only active within that country.

Because of the internal strife and factional disputes, the style has gone into severe decline, with its only publicity being the result of a revisionist history motion picture by a man named Spielberg. This virtually wiped out any ability to teach the style in the west, as its mere mention drew undeserved criticism.

Daniel

 

[Andrew Green]

they want to learn how to rip someone's heart out and eat it while it's still beating, that sort of stuff.

That sounds like they where watching Sonny Chiba (Karate) or maybe something out of Hong Kong (Kung-fu)? I also understand ninjas are capable of such things from what I've seen on tv and in film. Definitely not MMA, it's against the rules, only schools that teach stuff that is too deadly for sport competition know how to do that stuff.

 

[chaos1551]

I voted helped and hurt because, though it exposes martial arts to the community at large, it also exposes martial arts to the community at large.

 

[repz]

I voted hurt.

Reason I say hurt, is because of all the style bashing. For some reason, some MMAs like to relive past times and live on peoples achievements in fights as if they were their own, but these fighters they will never become, nor have the ability of.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I voted hurt.

Reason I say hurt, is because of all the style bashing. For some reason, some MMAs like to relive past times and live on peoples achievements in fights as if they were their own, but these fighters they will never become, nor have the ability of.

I have certainly noticed more 'style bashing' since mma has become the latest fad. There always was an element of style bashing but in the last couple of years the whole "my art is better than your art" and "these arts arent effective" stuff just seems to be everywhere and it usually seems to be coming from ufc wannabees who sit on their couch watching mma and becoming 'experts' on which art works and which one doesnt. I had a guy the other day give me an hour long lecture on martial arts and what works, what doesnt, which arts are the best etc etc , when I asked him what he trains in he told me he doesnt do martial arts but loves watching ufc and has gained all his information from what he has seen on the television.

 

[repz]

I have certainly noticed more 'style bashing' since mma has become the latest fad. There always was an element of style bashing but in the last couple of years the whole "my art is better than your art" and "these arts arent effective" stuff just seems to be everywhere and it usually seems to be coming from ufc wannabees who sit on their couch watching mma and becoming 'experts' on which art works and which one doesnt. I had a guy the other day give me an hour long lecture on martial arts and what works, what doesnt, which arts are the best etc etc , when I asked him what he trains in he told me he doesnt do martial arts but loves watching ufc and has gained all his information from what he has seen on the television.

Yes sir, it happens in boxing where people think they are coaches, as a kid I took their advice when I boxed, until my actual trainer told me not to listen to those drunks. It happens in baseball, football, soccer, you get the drift... everyone is an expert in a sport, yet they never played it, or dont continue to.

 

[repz]

Another thing that is friggin hilarious is now that Machida lost, everyone is bashing karate even more now, saying how inferior it is to Muay Thia since Ruas beat him, yet somehow they switched on their selective memory that they can forgot all the Muay thia fighters Machida already ate and spat out. Its like they were sitting on the edge of their seats praying for his lost, like he left a mark on the pure mma combat, or their arguments against karatekas was getting harder, and Machidas comments on tma having a chance in mma was too much to bare for them.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yes sir, it happens in boxing where people think they are coaches, as a kid I took their advice when I boxed, until my actual trainer told me not to listen to those drunks. It happens in baseball, football, soccer, you get the drift... everyone is an expert in a sport, yet they never played it, or dont continue to.

yes, and it leads to very broad sweeping theories such as 'tkd guys lack hand skills' or 'most fights go to the ground' etc

 

[tellner]

I voted hurt.

Reason I say hurt, is because of all the style bashing. For some reason, some MMAs like to relive past times and live on peoples achievements in fights as if they were their own, but these fighters they will never become, nor have the ability of.

Pot. Kettle. Black?
Splinter in your brother's eye? Beam in yours?

Before MMA pretty much all TMA styles did was bash each other and bask in the reflected glory of a fictional Yesterday. How many "O-Senesei did this" or "The Ninjas (sic) could do that" or "This was the Ancient Pitiless Battlefield Art of the Lower Slobovians" have we heard over the last century? At least when boxers or MMA fighters brag it's about someone they actually knocked out or submitted.

 

[repz]

Pot. Kettle. Black?
Splinter in your brother's eye? Beam in yours?

Before MMA pretty much all TMA styles did was bash each other and bask in the reflected glory of a fictional Yesterday. How many "O-Senesei did this" or "The Ninjas (sic) could do that" or "This was the Ancient Pitiless Battlefield Art of the Lower Slobovians" have we heard over the last century? At least when boxers or MMA fighters brag it's about someone they actually knocked out or submitted.

I never said there wasnt. Do you have a semi-truck backed up in your eye? Because its for the people that have never fought these styles in a no holds bar match but think they can live in the eyes of others who have.

And last I checked, for a non sport style to "not work", it has to lose its purpose, which for a lot of them is self defense. I have yet to see that happen in mma.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I think MMA helps the Martial art community because what they do actually works.

It is unlikely other martial art where there are so many story of how certain master can do this and that but then if you look at the first UFC, these master and their martial art got exposed.

Sigh, just the other day, i was watching Ip man 2 and the bs that got filmed, in the movie, the wing chun guy win against the boxer, but we all know in real life the boxer would win against the wing chun guy.

Even more bs is how this martial art in this movie is portrayed as "humble" when in real life a beaten boxer is much more humble than an untested wing chun guy.

The patch in the fighters shorts are in many ways the sponsor of the fighter, it is after all a sport. Other sport also have sponsor, formula 1, football etc.

Funny, I have a student who Boxed for years out of Gleason's Gym in NYC so he got great instruction and was around some great fighters.

The other day we were sparring, keeping it hands and feet with out grappling. I have no formal Wing Chun training, I have crosstrained with some people who do it from novice to instructors of the art.

Guess what was giving him the hardest time and alowed me nail him in the nose and temple several times while his defending limb was trapped against him? Some of the Wing Chun I picked up.

Now we were wearing gloves, imagine if we put eyes and throats on the table of acceptable targets, then the Boxer has next to nothing (if he is keeping within styles that is) and the Wng Chun guy has a whole host of technques he has practiced thousands of times.

Saying someone from this art will alays beat up someone from some other art is stupid.

It only counts the surface of the art.
What about they train harder at their art than you do?

Maybe they have a gift for the movements of the art and they can embody their art in combat better than you?

Maybe your art has a good rep but your instructor does not teach it well?

Maybe it's a great style, but your school has a relaxed, hobbiest atmosphere.

Maybe the Boxer has a great combative attitude in the Gym or in the Ring, applying his skills with another Boxer, who is trying to KO him but not kill him but if he hits the streets the fact that someone is out to kill him, ther is no Ref, Corner or Judges to stop the fight and no rules maybe his fear effects his performance?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Before MMA pretty much all TMA styles did was bash each other and bask in the reflected glory of a fictional Yesterday. How many "O-Senesei did this" or "The Ninjas (sic) could do that" or "This was the Ancient Pitiless Battlefield Art of the Lower Slobovians" have we heard over the last century? At least when boxers or MMA fighters brag it's about someone they actually knocked out or submitted.

Amazing how a common competitor has suddenly made most of TMA forget about that.

Of course then you have to really ask: what truly constitutes a traditional martial art? I have seen styles that are younger than the UFC called Traditional. Even Taekwondo is less than sixty years old, and the sparing style that has developed out of the olympic movement is less than thirty, and definitely distinct from the rest of taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[tellner]

Amazing how a common competitor has suddenly made most of TMA forget about that.

There's an old Arab saying that goes "My brother and I will fight my cousin. My cousin and I will fight the foreigner." MMA has the potential to eat all the commercial schools' lunch. So the WingVingTsunChun ITF/WTF and all the other fights fade away.

Of course then you have to really ask: what truly constitutes a traditional martial art? I have seen styles that are younger than the UFC called Traditional. Even Taekwondo is less than sixty years old, and the sparing style that has developed out of the olympic movement is less than thirty, and definitely distinct from the rest of taekwondo.

I guess they become traditional when people forget their MA used to be M.

 

[Radharc]

Hey,

I think the MMA debate is anything but linear, IMO when we talk about martial arts we are talking about a lot of "different animals", we have internal martial arts, we have people who do martial arts just to stay fit, we have people who like to compete, we have the self-defense aspect, different martial arts cater to this aspects in different extents.

Now regarding MMA, from a competition mindset perspective i think it was largely positive, in a way it helped answer the age old question "can my martial art beat your martial art", it set a focus on efectivness inside the ring, one on one. The negative side is that some ppl tend to think of MMA as the ultimate form of fighting regarding efectiveness, and transport that notion to real life self-defense settings, where there are no rules. A simple street multiple opponents scenario brings MMA "advantages", like grappling, seriously into question, I know for sure that in a such a situation the last thing i wanna do is grapple or go to the ground, in this setting something considered "innefective" in the octagon, like Aikido, can probably be more effective. Not to mention a more obvious system like Krav Maga

That said, I think there are some other positive effects, it encouraged cross training, people are more aware now that lots of different systems have very good techniques and that its a good thing to be well rounded and have different tools for different situations. Anything that can help to counter system-isolationism and helps fighting systems evolve is good in my opinion. And it brought lots of people into martials arts as well.

The downside is now that he have a hybrid system that lots of annoying people think that can turn you into a super-man, and is superior to all others.


I have to admit I haven't read the entire thread, only the first few pages and a lot of people made very good points there and I´m sure others did the same afterwards, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone.

 

[MJS]

MMA does not help MA. The silly attitudes and egos are like watching a bunch of 1st graders. Also, MMA does NOT show what "actually" works.

I wouldn't limit that 'attitude' to just MMA though. I've seen quite a bit of what you describe, in other arts as well.

In MMA there are no.....
Eye gouges, no knife hands to the throat, no downward elbows the head, no strikes and/or elbows to the back of the head and spine, no small joint manipulation, no kicking/or kneeing a downed opponent in the face, no pressure point attacks.

These techniques work in the Real Life. These techniques worked, the few times I had to use them in Iraq while house clearing.

Agreed. And this is where alot of the debate takes place. You get the TMA guys who say this stuff, the MMA guys who say it wont work in the ring, the MMA guys who think that what they see (insert any MMA fighter here) do in the ring, is a sure shot that it will also work for them. Just goes around and around. To that, I like to say this: everyone has their fav. things that they like to do. The TMA guy will fall back on what you said, the MMA guy will talk about the clinch and taking the guy to the ground. All are fine and dandy, however, IMHO, I think that they should also have a plan b, c, and d, in the event those things do not work.

Traditional Martial Arts teach respect and dignity, along with their techniques.

See my comment above. Again, I've seen a lack of that as well.

MMA is a crude sport. Nothing more. It is IMO- a sport we can do without.

I agree, it is a sport. However, IMO, I think that both the TMAs and MMA, can benefit from each other.

 

[tellner]

MMA does not help MA. The silly attitudes and egos are like watching a bunch of 1st graders. Also, MMA does NOT show what "actually" works.

As others have pointed out, these are hardly confined to MMA. I've seen relatively little of it in professional MMA. And TMA can hardly point fingers. See Boztepe vs. Cheung, ITF vs. WTF, TSD vs. Karate, CHKD vs THKD, pretty much any two Silat lineages ad nauseam, ad infinitum. At least in the competitive sport the ego and talking yourself up can be a legitimate part of the mental game - psyching yourself up and the other guy out. It can serve a purpose. In the TMA it's generally a lot less connected to any real-world goal.

In MMA there are no.....
Eye gouges, no knife hands to the throat, no downward elbows the head, no strikes and/or elbows to the back of the head and spine, no small joint manipulation, no kicking/or kneeing a downed opponent in the face, no pressure point attacks.

These techniques work in the Real Life. These techniques worked, the few times I had to use them in Iraq while house clearing.

Frankly, most TMA are lousy at that sort of thing. The ones that spar don't use these techniques in their bouts. And what they teach is often pretty lame, stuffed into a dance-form kata or taught as unconnected technique. Is it really what their practitioners revert to under pressure? Are these things so off an MMA player's radar that he or she couldn't bite, elbow or stomp a downed enemy?

I'm honestly guessing no on both counts.

Let's take a look at what they have in common - boxing and wrestling loosely defined. Maybe MMA fighters are specialists in this. Are their boxing and wrestling skills as good as or better than most TMA types'? Definitely no worse. Are they in better condition? Almost certainly. Wrestling and Thai boxing require a hellish degree of fitness.

Traditional Martial Arts teach respect and dignity, along with their techniques.

Says so right there on the label. In about thirty years of this game I can't say I've seen them do a very good job of it. "Respect" tends to mean a lot of bobbing up and down combined with worshipful butt-kissing to anyone with a fancier colored strip of cloth and a highly developed, rigidly enforced status system.

My working definition of "respect" and "dignity" are a little more nuanced than that.

If we're talking about fighters or even people terrified to the point where they turn into vicious scared monkeys you respect the fact that one lucky or desperate attack could ruin your day. So a prudent person has manners which keep him from putting himself in danger. Someone who has put in a lot of time and effort deserves recognition for it. And good manners are just plain good manners anywhere. Besides, if you don't have them people tend to stay away from you.

Dignity? If you mean physical and emotional confidence I suppose MA can be good for that. So can MMA. So can anything which gives you a sense of real accomplishment.

MMA is a crude sport. Nothing more. It is IMO- a sport we can do without.

A sport? Certainly. People who compete make no bones about that.

Crude? Hardly. It has developed very quickly and to a very high level so that the early winners like Royce Gracie aren't even contenders anymore. It's highly optimized for what it does. That isn't everything, but it covers a whole lot of territory. More than most TMA, to be quite honest.

Something we can do without? Yeah, I guess so. We can do without all sorts of things. But it does provide a valuable service. All sorts of people were fooling themselves and had no way of seeing if what they were saying was true.
"My striking can stop any wrestler". No. Not really.
"My martial art is unstoppable". Didn't turn out that way.
"Our anti-fill-in-the-blank techniques are invincible". Proved false.
"I don't have to learn anything about what anyone else does. All I have to do is practice what they teach us." Not if you want to put up a good fight.
And so on.