More accurately, if you want to be a good martial artist, you should train other arts.
Has anyone had to use Wing-Chun for self-defense ?
- Thread starter Bayroum
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Oily Dragon
Senior Master
So what you're saying is, he teaches Wing Chun.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Learning how to basically fight goes a long way to being a good martial artist.
And there tends to be a common theme of how to do that.
So your judo your wrestling your karate put you in challenging resisted environments with people who can be very good at their martial arts.
In turn you become good.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Which "Wing Chun guys" don't cross train and do fine?
You're basically saying that one of the best examples of modern Wing Chun was doing it wrong
I watch this video and all I see is snake, crane, dragon.
I’d love to get some training on that. Now I really wish I still had students - I’d look for someone to do a seminar.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
I was for a while, long enough to get my SAG card. Which gives me a boot load of DVDs of new movies to vote on. I love free movies.
this is ubiquitous in quality CMA teaching. Like “1 inch punch” or “reverse punch”. I don’t like those names, but call it whatever.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Don't say that too loud or the Wing Chun Mafia will show up...
(Whispering) Pssst... Don't tell anyone, but I learned some really good stuff from Leung Ting back in the 80s. But learning directly from him in small group settings was way better IMO than belonging to one of the slick commercial schools run by some of his big organizations these days. Or maybe I'm just romanticizing my youth?
However my focus changed over the years, I've long been "on the outs" with the WT crowd. Later I came to appreciate WSL WC more for it's pragmatism. Unfortunately, it's not taught in my area. Besides. judging from what little info is on the web, it too seems to have become something different from what was originally taught.
In some aspects perhaps, but IMHO it depends on what specific "differences" you're talking about. I would say most (if not all, WKL and BL being notable exceptions) 1st generation WSL students are doing an accurate job transmitting WSL's core methods. We have what seems to be an increasing number of self-taught wannabes, but I feel like that applies to many lineages these days.
I've seen a number of videos with David Peterson that I definitely could relate to. Too bad I live on the opposite side of the planet.
Philip Bayer has impressive skill, but there seems to have something of a cult-like following built on him being some kind of heir or "inheritor" of the WSL lineage. This atmosphere produce a few personalities as Kevin Gledhill. Years back, Gledhill used to post a lot on some forums and came off as, well, not a very pleasant or humble fellow. ...Until he got publicly humbled.
Lets face, generally speaking WC seems to attract jerks like my dog's droppings attract flies. Yet ...I still practice the art.
I think theres many in the system who argue they have the true art and everyone else is wrong.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
There's always that section of the kung fu crowd that can't seem to accept the fact that Wing Chun is not special compared to other MA, or way of becoming a master killer.
And those tend to be the "All you need is the fist sets" people, as is learning a form unlocks all the secrets. One full run of Siu Lim Tao makes them feel like a Shaolin master, but all they have really learned is some very basic southern Shaolin concepts meant to introduce basic arm movements.
Like all styles and sub styles, the only way it becomes useful in combat is practicing it that way. Otherwise there's no gung. The more comfortable a WC student is with physical contact, the better their WC will develop, and the opposite is true: it's easy to spot someone who really doesn't know WC very well.
And gotta be honest, I do almost all my fist set work nowadays with weighted rings, regardless of style, and doing them without feels like it's not even worthwhile. Like lifting 5lb freeweights, you feel like youve accomplished very little other than a little stretching, warmup etc.
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Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Lineage wars.
When you compare Wing Chun with other arts from the same area of China, you don't find nearly as much deviation as with WC, which is all over the map, so you have amazing kung fu of Wong Shun Leung and his methods, and right nearby in the Ip Man branches, meh. No shaming intended but it really really comes down to how good your teacher is.
Like Wong Fei Hung Hung Ga, a much bigger system, you are only going to find two main lineage branches (Lam and Dang). The curriculum, fist set, weapons for these are practically indistinguishable. To find much different you have to go back to earlier in the 19th century, before Wing Fei Hung what we call Hung Ga Kuen today. He didn't create the art (there were generations before him) but he did set down what is taught.
Compare that to Wing Chun, there's almost no canonical format. Some lineages emphasize Snake technique, others don't. Crane elements are probably the most common elements, which is why the Yee Gi Kim Yeurng Ma is almost always present in WC
.
All of the 1st generation WSL students have great skill and insight to share. Those seeking WSL's method should take advantage of training with any one of them, given the opportunity. They are all inheritors in some way or another. I won't speak negatively about anyone, as I'm personal friends with several of them, many of which are also my sisuk.
I can say that Gledhill is much less vocal on forums for perhaps many reasons, health being one of them.
Another thing that I think is a universal observation of sorts, is that students often take-on the attitudes of their sifu. IMO, that's where it starts. It can be like a badge of honor for some. And like Wing Chun's Canto roots, it's a very social community at its core. WSLVT has its fair share of bickering amongst 1st gen practitioners, but it is nothing unique to our lineage. Like you, I have also found that certain levels of in-fighting exist in all of Yip Man sub-lineages.
Over the years, I have developed the outlook that Wing Chun practitioners can benefit from taking a cue from Spiderman, "with great power, comes great responsibility". IMO, checking our ego is one of those responsibilities. Some people don't know how to do that, but I'm in it for the gong fu. All of my seniors get respect, I grow, and the VT continues to thrive through the generations.
IMO, some practitioners also struggle to exercise quality control without being offensive. People skills can go a long way.
Good Points. Wing Chun came from the Red Boat Opera. Problem is that there we over 40 Opera troupes in Foshan . Troops gathered in winter and went their own ways in summer. Many members had martial skill. Wing Chun was not a religion then so 1 troop might combine more crane and another might cross with other arts based on the skills of those in that particular troupe. Then it spread but that led to the next problem .Some say their wing chun was learned from painted Face Kam for example. Question is which one there we over 40. Stories say Leung Yee Tai sang female roll others say he was a pole man. Both could be right and talking about different people. So this is a core reason there is no one format wing chun never had one strict beginning. Even the base art was not called wing chun it was a form called SLT.
Second reason is that wing chun developed as an elite martial art. Not elite as in skill but elite as in who was taught. It became the art of the business and upper middle class . It was very expensive to learn. Not like the large CLF or Hung Gar schools. For whatever reasons many wealthy business owners hired private wing chun instructors for their children. Most of these people never went on to teach and never wanted to so there was very little sharing across the different styles during the late 1800's early 20th century. Leung Jan and his students were the most widely known but Leung Jan never claimed he was the only source. The largest standerization period happened in the 1920's when Ng chun So was teaching at Yui Choi's brothers business and for the first time wing chun had its own gathering place where practioners hung out. This is when the 3 form platform became as close to a standard as there is although the composition of the 3 forms varies.
My question is what is considered training other arts?
If I was putting myself out as a professional rather than just a hobbyist I would certainly have put the time in to get a BJJ black belt or similar catch wrestling skills.
As a wing chun Hobbyist when I was young I wanted to learn how to fight with wing chun. To that end I placed adds in newspapers and the like looking for others to spar with. I went to boxing gyms to spar against boxers and would go to other martial art schools and gyms looking for others like me that wanted to learn how to fight or prove how good they were with their chosen art.
I sparred with anyone that would spar no matter what skill level or attitude including bikers,violent criminals that did time, black belts of various arts and was even lucky enough to get in the ring with professional boxers. Most folks were very cool and after we smacked each other we would stop and explain what we just did to each other. I learned a lot.
I think I have a decent understanding of how to make wing chun work however from my pov I never studied another art.
If you train the
- northern CMA, you are good in open but bad in close.
- southern CMA, you are good in close but bad in open.
If you train both, you can be good on both. It's always good to look at one thing from different angles.
Also, it's good to look at from both a striker point of view and a grappler point of view. Should I knock my opponent out, or should I take my opponent down and then knock him out? It may take you 10 punches to knock your opponent down. Sometime a simple foot sweep on your opponent's leading leg can take him down. If you are a pure striker, when a foot sweep opportunity presents to you, you may not recognize it and a fight may last unnecessary long.
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Learning enough to be able to get what you want out of it. There's no reason to complicate things.
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