wing chun effectiveness

[dungeonworks]

I agree. Ultimatley only a real fight is going to proove anything. The point was more along the lines of how do you know if your training works before you get into a fight.

Do you see where I'm comming from?

I CERTAINLY DO!!! :duh: LOL

 

[dungeonworks]

Exactly. I bash my head against the wal on other forums where they say that because wing chun does not appear in the cage it is rubbish. I have fought in the cage. In bare knuckle tournaments. In gloved up boxing matches. I will testify now that whilst it is nice understanding how pressure works, those environments are not realistic in any fashion.

The classic example was the finale of UFC heavyweights where one of the fighters was disqualified because he used the tip of his elbow in a downward motion in the ground and pound position. It was a banned technique. The opponent was smashed to smithereens. Yet the rules of the cage didnt allow it. Therefore, cage and ringwork are limited by these kind of rules

Being in a street scenario as compared to a ring scenario is completely different. In a ring, the adrenaline still pumps but you are confined to certain techniques

Sparring with heavy gloves is a great training technique because it gets you moving, gets you used to taking impacts and your opponent can really go for you. Yet, it is still only as useful as simulated environments or chi sao.

The true effectiveness comes from wing chun's ability comes from its efficient techniques, its close quarter environment, its ability to use minimal energy and its power/speed

Most arts do not work these, and certainly you will not find an art that works all of these areas

You are an exception Kamon because you cross train in several styles!

As I mentioned a hundred times, sparring/MMA is the closest thing that we have to an actual fight....at least relative to the fights I have experienced throughout my life. In Koei-Kan-, we full contact sparred against multiple attackers (BALLS INCLUDED!) as well as one on one. It will be covered in JKD from time to time as well. I even said sparring alone or MMA alone is not the be all/end all. The topic of this thread was on Wing Chun's effectiveness. I posed the question of how Wing Chun validates what works and what does not work since by and large they do not spar in most kwoons. Karate has sparring, JJ/Judo has Randori (although Judo's birth was sport oriented from the start), BJJ has rolling, Muay Thai and Kickboxing have matches and sparring, JKD has LOTS of sparring (...ironically this is where I seen my Wing Chun come out! With heavy gloves during boxing as I mentioned before!), TKD has their sparring...ect.
Again, I never said sparring or MMA was a REAL FIGHT as I have said it is the closest thing we have for generally safe practice!!! What part of that are people here having a hard time reading when I type that!!! Since most Chun schools do not spar for the excuse that it is "too deadly" or "not designed for sport" I became curious as to how WC came to know what worked and what did not. NONE (aside Judo) was designed speciffically for sporting purposes. Even the root of Muay Thai (Muay Boran is it?) was designed for self defense and out of the ring combat. You can readily Google or Youtube and instantly find footage of all of those styles in action. Wing Chunner's say it is too deadly to do so and not what it was meant for and takes too much from the art.....ect. Shoot, look at knee kicks, knee/elbow strikes alone. They are not as dramatically resulting as people think most of the time. Watch any MMA fight for proof that elbows do more cutting than knocking out, and kicks to the knees rarely stop a takedown and even rarer to stop a fight.


So, what is it that I am asking??? WHAThas been taken from WC that is NOT taken from the other arts that would put WC at such a disadvantage? Eye pokes? All the other styles have them too and cannot use them...same with groin shots, small joint manipulations, shots to the back of the head, elbow from 12 oclock to 6 oclock (roof to floor) positions (a widely argued and disputed rule at that and the result of an NSAC commissioner that saw a power breaking competition during regulation meetings for MMA in Nevada, USA). Since real fighting will eventually land you in jail, injure/kill/maim you at some point, how does Wing Chun practice for real time effectiveness at combat speed? How does the Chunner know his techniques are gonna save his or her hyde before they fight? Is it just faith?


Again, I ask this with all due respect. No insults or hurt feelings intended....just good dialog.

 

[dungeonworks]

Fight in a Hanoi Park By Antonio Graceffo

A good article on the topic.

 

[leejunfan]

This article might shed a little light on effectiveness:

http://www.twc-kungfu.com/articles/ikf_june_1997/1.html

 

[dosk3n]

I do know what you mean and I think a lot of people say that they cant to the "dangerous techniques" just as a defence to there style when people question it. I guess this is there faith in the style. Im not being disrespectful to other chunners and I do practice WC as my main art but I am open minded to all styles.

You asked "how does Wing Chun practice for real time effectiveness at combat speed?"

The simple answer is through Chi Sau. Which to contradict myself to what I said in the post above, is sparing to an extent. If you cant do Chi Sau you wont understand it fully or at least it is hard for me to explain it fully and I would sugest trying it if you can but it is fighting at combat speed. It does look as if we are just roling arms and performing pre designed routines but correct chi sau is random. If you dont perform at combat speed you get hit. The only reason our arm are always touching is to train sensitivity but apart from that it is a real fight.

That is the best I can do to answering your question as I am still new myself and even though I question my Sifu as often as I can I am still learning and have only been for about 8 months.

 

[dungeonworks]

This article might shed a little light on effectiveness:

http://www.twc-kungfu.com/articles/ikf_june_1997/1.html

Good read! Thanks!

 

[Poor Uke]

The simple answer is through Chi Sau. Which to contradict myself to what I said in the post above, is sparing to an extent. If you cant do Chi Sau you wont understand it fully or at least it is hard for me to explain it fully and I would sugest trying it if you can but it is fighting at combat speed. It does look as if we are just roling arms and performing pre designed routines but correct chi sau is random. If you dont perform at combat speed you get hit. The only reason our arm are always touching is to train sensitivity but apart from that it is a real fight.

Hi dosk I trainined WC for 7 years so I get Chi Sau and it isnt the same as sparring, although it can be played pretty hard with Chi Jurk thrown into the mix. The we are getting closure to sparring agreed.

 

[dosk3n]

Hi dosk I trainined WC for 7 years so I get Chi Sau and it isnt the same as sparring, although it can be played pretty hard with Chi Jurk thrown into the mix. The we are getting closure to sparring agreed.

Hi,

yeah I agree it isnt the same as sparing fully, that is why I said to an extent but I still think the mental aspect of sparing is there. The same ability of suprise and having to use realistic stratagy is still there.

do you agree?

 

[Poor Uke]

Not fully. Personally I think sparring ups the ante. but yes Chi Sau is a good game that teaches good postion good timing etc... but its not as full on as sparring.

 

[mook jong man]

That would really depend on who you are doing the chi sau sparring with .
One of my instructors used to be a bouncer in New Zealand , one of his favourite things to do in chi sau sparring was if a guy had long hair he would pierce through with his Tan Sau and drag them straight down to the floor by the hair.

He also used to palm strike me so hard in the ribs that I would go home and have a shower and I would have his actual hand prints still on my rib cage .

Also if you had an earring you would take that out as well before that got slammed into the side of your head. I remember actually getting through him once and cracking him straight in the cheek bone with a decent shot and all he did was smile and say good hit.

I was absolutely intimidated by him , but he made me what I am today.
He was very hard and brutal man inside the school but outside the school he was a very nice man who would give you the shirt off his back and treat you as an equal.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Now now thats just plain wrong!

Judo, JJ, Sambo and Arnis all train close quarter using minimal energy concepts and using speed and power.

Nope, they train CLINCHWORK which is not classed or defined as closequarter. Closequarter martial arts refer to striking arts (grappling is obviously grappling and is CLOSER than close quarter)

Arnis does not really train close quarter and to be honest is pretty poor as a striking style - before you kick off, I have trained escrima (ARNIS and KALI) for several years under various teachers

Judo is more of a concept art - I use it solely for increasing balance and stance work. To actually defeat an opponent I would never use that style. It definately does not use minimal energy and efficient movements.

Poor Uke - you have a silly habit of nitpicking people's posts on here for irrelevant things. This is frequently leading to off topic conversations and if it continues I will simply block your messages

 

[KamonGuy2]

You are an exception Kamon because you cross train in several styles!

As I mentioned a hundred times, sparring/MMA is the closest thing that we have to an actual fight....at least relative to the fights I have experienced throughout my life. In Koei-Kan-, we full contact sparred against multiple attackers (BALLS INCLUDED!) as well as one on one. It will be covered in JKD from time to time as well. I even said sparring alone or MMA alone is not the be all/end all. The topic of this thread was on Wing Chun's effectiveness. I posed the question of how Wing Chun validates what works and what does not work since by and large they do not spar in most kwoons. Karate has sparring, JJ/Judo has Randori (although Judo's birth was sport oriented from the start), BJJ has rolling, Muay Thai and Kickboxing have matches and sparring, JKD has LOTS of sparring (...ironically this is where I seen my Wing Chun come out! With heavy gloves during boxing as I mentioned before!), TKD has their sparring...ect.
Again, I never said sparring or MMA was a REAL FIGHT as I have said it is the closest thing we have for generally safe practice!!! What part of that are people here having a hard time reading when I type that!!! Since most Chun schools do not spar for the excuse that it is "too deadly" or "not designed for sport" I became curious as to how WC came to know what worked and what did not. NONE (aside Judo) was designed speciffically for sporting purposes. Even the root of Muay Thai (Muay Boran is it?) was designed for self defense and out of the ring combat. You can readily Google or Youtube and instantly find footage of all of those styles in action. Wing Chunner's say it is too deadly to do so and not what it was meant for and takes too much from the art.....ect. Shoot, look at knee kicks, knee/elbow strikes alone. They are not as dramatically resulting as people think most of the time. Watch any MMA fight for proof that elbows do more cutting than knocking out, and kicks to the knees rarely stop a takedown and even rarer to stop a fight.


So, what is it that I am asking??? WHAThas been taken from WC that is NOT taken from the other arts that would put WC at such a disadvantage? Eye pokes? All the other styles have them too and cannot use them...same with groin shots, small joint manipulations, shots to the back of the head, elbow from 12 oclock to 6 oclock (roof to floor) positions (a widely argued and disputed rule at that and the result of an NSAC commissioner that saw a power breaking competition during regulation meetings for MMA in Nevada, USA). Since real fighting will eventually land you in jail, injure/kill/maim you at some point, how does Wing Chun practice for real time effectiveness at combat speed? How does the Chunner know his techniques are gonna save his or her hyde before they fight? Is it just faith?


Again, I ask this with all due respect. No insults or hurt feelings intended....just good dialog.

Dungeonworks, as always you bring up great points.

What people forget is that you will never truly be able to fully prove that your style works. In a fight you might be up against a weak opponent. If you beat him with your martial art, does that make your art good?

If you fight a talented opponent but he slips over and you capitalise, does that make your art good?

I went on another art with video footage of me sparring to prove that wing chun had validity. They merely complained that I was goijng up against other chunners. So I re-did the videos with guys from other styles. They complained that these guys werent very good. So I refilmed with black belt karate guys. They said that it was due to my size that I won. You will never be able to win. There has to be a little bit of faith and common sense when you train an art. These are why foruims are good - because you can exchange ideas and concepts. Go to other schools and have a look around. Train with guys from other arts and increase your experience - that is all you can do

Of course, there is the infanous story of how Yip Man as a young man thought he was a good fighter until he met a wing chunner and found him to be better than he was. This turned out to be Leung Bik. There is always someone better out there and someone who knows more martial arts than you. Does that make what you are learning rubbish? Of course not

But I do feel very strongly that you must train in sparring. Get some gloves on and play around. It will condition you as well as get you moving better. You dont have to box - you can spar under any rules that you want, but it is good to get that kind of training in

 

[jarrod]

Nope, they train CLINCHWORK which is not classed or defined as closequarter. Closequarter martial arts refer to striking arts (grappling is obviously grappling and is CLOSER than close quarter)

Arnis does not really train close quarter and to be honest is pretty poor as a striking style - before you kick off, I have trained escrima (ARNIS and KALI) for several years under various teachers

Judo is more of a concept art - I use it solely for increasing balance and stance work. To actually defeat an opponent I would never use that style. It definately does not use minimal energy and efficient movements.

Poor Uke - you have a silly habit of nitpicking people's posts on here for irrelevant things. This is frequently leading to off topic conversations and if it continues I will simply block your messages

how is clinching not close quarter? different systems use different definitions. in most military contexts, all hand-to-hand is called "close", relative to firing range at least. it's all semantics anyway; i don't think most styles have a fixed measure on what constitutes close.

i'm not sure what you mean about judo being a concept art. anything with a list of official techniques (not that i'm saying that's a good or essential thing) is not too heavily concept based IMO. judo is actually entirely based on efficient movement. kano discussed this frequently. it does take a long, long time to become proficient at throwing, though.

not nitpicking at you, but judo is pretty commonly regarded as an efficiency-oriented style, & close is all relative.

jf

 

[mook jong man]

I would say in the context of striking in Wing Chun with fists , close would probably be about two fists distance from my chest to their chest .

I believe that properly trained you should still be able to generate sufficient power from that distance , comes in very handy in repelling clinching types of attacks .

Any closer than that and you would probably have to use something else.

 

[wkmark]

Dungeonworks, as always you bring up great points.

What people forget is that you will never truly be able to fully prove that your style works. In a fight you might be up against a weak opponent. If you beat him with your martial art, does that make your art good?

If you fight a talented opponent but he slips over and you capitalise, does that make your art good?

I went on another art with video footage of me sparring to prove that wing chun had validity. They merely complained that I was goijng up against other chunners. So I re-did the videos with guys from other styles. They complained that these guys werent very good. So I refilmed with black belt karate guys. They said that it was due to my size that I won. You will never be able to win. There has to be a little bit of faith and common sense when you train an art. These are why foruims are good - because you can exchange ideas and concepts. Go to other schools and have a look around. Train with guys from other arts and increase your experience - that is all you can do

Of course, there is the infanous story of how Yip Man as a young man thought he was a good fighter until he met a wing chunner and found him to be better than he was. This turned out to be Leung Bik. There is always someone better out there and someone who knows more martial arts than you. Does that make what you are learning rubbish? Of course not

But I do feel very strongly that you must train in sparring. Get some gloves on and play around. It will condition you as well as get you moving better. You dont have to box - you can spar under any rules that you want, but it is good to get that kind of training in

That's why it's so important to test out the skills yourself. When I help teach the newer students certain moves and concepts, I always ask them to try it out. Don't just listen to me but do it and see and let me know their feedbacks, test it out with different people.

Also we have various Martial Arts exchanges locally with other styles to test out what works for us and what doesn't. The important thing is to constantly be trying things out, because in the end what works for me may not work for you.

 

[KamonGuy2]

how is clinching not close quarter? different systems use different definitions. in most military contexts, all hand-to-hand is called "close", relative to firing range at least. it's all semantics anyway; i don't think most styles have a fixed measure on what constitutes close.

i'm not sure what you mean about judo being a concept art. anything with a list of official techniques (not that i'm saying that's a good or essential thing) is not too heavily concept based IMO. judo is actually entirely based on efficient movement. kano discussed this frequently. it does take a long, long time to become proficient at throwing, though.

not nitpicking at you, but judo is pretty commonly regarded as an efficiency-oriented style, & close is all relative.

jf

Clinching is not close quarter because you are conected to the guy through a grip or wrap. Therefore it is beyond close quarter

'Close quarter' refers to a striking range.

Judo is not based on efficient movement. There are some techniques within Judo that are very efficient, but a lot involve a drawn out process of gaining position on your opponent (if you are calling a suplex an efficient technique then I give up). Wing Chun on the other hand is direct and to the point. Like I said, it doesnt make Judo a bad art - it is actually just as useful as any other art to learn

 

[jarrod]

Clinching is not close quarter because you are conected to the guy through a grip or wrap. Therefore it is beyond close quarter

'Close quarter' refers to a striking range.

do you have a source, or do i just take your word? i've never heard of closer-than-close quarters combat. i've always heard CQC as a general reference to hand to hand, usually including short range weapons.

Judo is not based on efficient movement. There are some techniques within Judo that are very efficient, but a lot involve a drawn out process of gaining position on your opponent (if you are calling a suplex an efficient technique then I give up). Wing Chun on the other hand is direct and to the point. Like I said, it doesnt make Judo a bad art - it is actually just as useful as any other art to learn

once again, it's all relative. ura nage (suplex) requires more work than a straight punch, but it's a very efficient way to throw someone on their shoulders/back of their head. i've used this on guys 100lbs bigger than me, & i'm not freakishly strong. maybe i'm doing it wrong.

judo is very efficient for throwing. if you dislike throwing because it's less efficient than striking in your mind, i can certainly understand that, but it's incorrect to say that judo is inefficient.

jf

 

[leejunfan]

Dungeonworks, as always you bring up great points.

What people forget is that you will never truly be able to fully prove that your style works. In a fight you might be up against a weak opponent. If you beat him with your martial art, does that make your art good?

If you fight a talented opponent but he slips over and you capitalise, does that make your art good?

I went on another art with video footage of me sparring to prove that wing chun had validity. They merely complained that I was goijng up against other chunners. So I re-did the videos with guys from other styles. They complained that these guys werent very good. So I refilmed with black belt karate guys. They said that it was due to my size that I won. You will never be able to win. There has to be a little bit of faith and common sense when you train an art. These are why foruims are good - because you can exchange ideas and concepts. Go to other schools and have a look around. Train with guys from other arts and increase your experience - that is all you can do

Of course, there is the infanous story of how Yip Man as a young man thought he was a good fighter until he met a wing chunner and found him to be better than he was. This turned out to be Leung Bik. There is always someone better out there and someone who knows more martial arts than you. Does that make what you are learning rubbish? Of course not

But I do feel very strongly that you must train in sparring. Get some gloves on and play around. It will condition you as well as get you moving better. You dont have to box - you can spar under any rules that you want, but it is good to get that kind of training in

Amen brother!!

 

[KamonGuy2]

once again, it's all relative. ura nage (suplex) requires more work than a straight punch, but it's a very efficient way to throw someone on their shoulders/back of their head. i've used this on guys 100lbs bigger than me, & i'm not freakishly strong. maybe i'm doing it wrong.

judo is very efficient for throwing. if you dislike throwing because it's less efficient than striking in your mind, i can certainly understand that, but it's incorrect to say that judo is inefficient.

jf

The point is not what the most efficient way for throwing someone - with regards to throwing, judo is probably the top art for that. We were discussing the most efficient martial art, and the techniques in judo for defeating a guy are extremely inefficient as compared to say a punch to the jaw or a chop to the throat. The ura nage suplex or 'Rock Bottom' as its also known (lol) is a nice move but takes a lot of effort to pull off as compared to sweeping or tripping someone.

 

[dungeonworks]

How can we even compare efficiency between a total grappling art and primarily striking art striking art? Of course the grappling is going to be more exhausting! LOL It's like comparing a rear naked choke to a chain punch.....you can't compare them! LOL

This ain't even like comparing apples and oranges! More like Avocado and lamb chops!