Hapkido schools a dying breed?

[Gweilo]

I'd have to see what you mean by that. The lock itself is not normally available unless the structure is broken or their body movement is restricted. An arm drag or arm roll will start that structure change and can be enough sometimes to make the lock available. But it may be that you include one or the other in your definition of the arm bar.

I should have been clearer, I was talking about structual manipulation through joint control.
For example, if someone grabs your wrist, you can push into their limb in a way that locks the joints of their arm, from their wrist up to the elbow and shoulder, in a way that affects their balance so you can take them to the ground without the use of pain as a motivator.

 

[drop bear]

I teach most standing arm bars as transition points (kind of like stances). Start with an arm drag, use the arm for some leverage. If it stays straight (probably the 4th most likely possibility out of 5, in broad terms), you can always finish with the arm bar as a takedown or break. If (more likely) the arm bends, you've used the beginning (what I term the entry) to break their structure and something else will present, even if it's only an opportunity to drive a knee in or such. If the arm drag entry doesn't lead to breaking the posture in any significant way, either you used it without an opportunity (that is, a place where an arm drag would be somewhat effective) or they countered.

In this approach, the lock becomes the least important part of the technique. The entry is what they're really learning to use, and the lock is just learning to manipulate a straight arm from several different positions.

The entities can be pretty solid. Because we could be using tried and tested methods like underhooks, arm drags and shoulder shrug.

There is a bit of clever standing kimoura stuff as well.

And this is basically how I get arm bars on guys who are not very good.

But for these entries to work you have to be able to wrestle. It is going to be the major component in this equation. If you have a terrifying clinch game you are basically an arm bar specialist. (Of which I don't and am not)

But I really don't think people are spending their time on that as much as an arm bar specialist kind of should. I think they are describing entries that are not realistic. So that their arm bar game works. Or they are trying lock flows. Which are defended by bringing the elbow in to the body pretty much.

And I don't think this method works very well.

Which is also why we don't see it that often.

 

[drop bear]

I'd have to see what you mean by that. The lock itself is not normally available unless the structure is broken or their body movement is restricted. An arm drag or arm roll will start that structure change and can be enough sometimes to make the lock available. But it may be that you include one or the other in your definition of the arm bar.

Arm bar specialists should basically look like this. And Aikido or whatever off shoot this is Aikijitsu or something? Is a good example.

I can see it. I can see it with resistance and we can break down to a certain degree what they are doing.

Very different to drill based arm bars.

 

[drop bear]

The difference is Hapkido isn't supposed to be a long drawn-out fight or a chess match. In BJJ, your goal is typically to gain position, and then achieve the submission hold. In Hapkido, the idea is generally to have them on the ground with a broken arm before they realize you're fighting back. That's why we do a take-down and then immediately attack a joint - whatever joint we're holding onto. If we took you down by the leg we'll go for a heel hook, if we took you down by the arm we'll usually go for your wrist or shoulder.

The other thing is that we like to stay standing up. If there's another person present, then setting an armbar on the ground is the last place I want to be. And if the standing one doesn't work, I've still taken them down, where unless they're trained in BJJ I probably have the

This is where things go weird.

If you want these outcomes you have to be a lot better than the guy you are fighting.

It is not a stylistic choice (mostly) to say you train for short fights and easy takedowns.

 

[drop bear]

For the record, the technique at 1:43 is the technique I'm talking about when I refer to a standing armbar.

By the way with that straight arm bar. If the shoulder is above the elbow. You don't have that lock. You can crank that all day and you won't get a result.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a bit of clever standing kimoura stuff as well.

That sounds tasty.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Arm bar specialists should basically look like this. And Aikido or whatever off shoot this is Aikijitsu or something? Is a good example.

I can see it. I can see it with resistance and we can break down to a certain degree what they are doing.

Very different to drill based arm bars.

Probably Tomiki Aikido. As you'd expect, their competition movement and casual sparring (randori) tends to look like Judo in a lot of ways. And, to me, that's key. The aiki drills are useful, and important if you want to understand some of the nuances available in the techniques. But they're much more usable if you have that sort of Judo viewpoint, where you don't depend on the aiki version exclusively.

 

[skribs]

This is where things go weird.

If you want these outcomes you have to be a lot better than the guy you are fighting.

It is not a stylistic choice (mostly) to say you train for short fights and easy takedowns.

And that's why we train for years.

Surprise is also an element. Something that's not there in the ring (in the ring, they know you're going to fight back).

 

[drop bear]

Probably Tomiki Aikido. As you'd expect, their competition movement and casual sparring (randori) tends to look like Judo in a lot of ways. And, to me, that's key. The aiki drills are useful, and important if you want to understand some of the nuances available in the techniques. But they're much more usable if you have that sort of Judo viewpoint, where you don't depend on the aiki version exclusively.

I think there is a more encompassing idea of unresisted drills vs. ........

The Aiki version is an example of that.

In that trying to learn aikido concepts without sparring/competing defeats the purpose of what you are trying to do because you don't get the authentic response.

Hapkido would also need that authentic response for their stuff to work.

But all the Hapkido training I have seen has been very manufactured situational stuff. And then trying to overcome this huge gap by trying to perfect technique. And it doesn't work very well at all.

And this is why the conversations don't have the technical depth you would expect from an expert. Their attackers are these one dimensional mockeries of real attackers.

 

[drop bear]

And that's why we train for years.

Surprise is also an element. Something that's not there in the ring (in the ring, they know you're going to fight back).

If you trained right it would take less years.

And look if you can't reliably put guys down in the ring (Or anywhere for that matter) you can't make up excuses that your techniques still work.

 

[dvcochran]

I think there is a more encompassing idea of unresisted drills vs. ........

The Aiki version is an example of that.

In that trying to learn aikido concepts without sparring/competing defeats the purpose of what you are trying to do because you don't get the authentic response.

Hapkido would also need that authentic response for their stuff to work.

But all the Hapkido training I have seen has been very manufactured situational stuff. And then trying to overcome this huge gap by trying to perfect technique. And it doesn't work very well at all.

And this is why the conversations don't have the technical depth you would expect from an expert. Their attackers are these one dimensional mockeries of real attackers.

Let me guess, you watch a few Aiki and Hapkido videos on Youtube and surmised this had to be true. Have you Ever trained or worked out in either.
FWIW, I can find tons of instructional MMA videos done Exactly the way you reference.
Gotta call BS again.

 

[drop bear]

Let me guess, you watch a few Aiki and Hapkido videos on Youtube and surmised this had to be true. Have you Ever trained or worked out in either.
FWIW, I can find tons of instructional MMA videos done Exactly the way you reference.
Gotta call BS again.

Ok. So we are going down the secret of mystery training again?

If I haven't trained in Aikido/hapkido how can I judge?

If I have but haven't got a black belt then I never stayed long enough to learn the true secrets.

If I got a black belt then I haven't learned the advanced true secrets that brings everything else together.

I could show a MMA double leg working live. And the static drill should reflect that. You could go to a MMA open mat and wrestle a MMA guy and have him put a double leg on you. And that would reflect the drill.

You could watch a MMA competition and see that same double leg being used and that would reflect the drill.

You could enter a MMA competition and face a double leg and that would reflect the drill.

And then you could suggest that the drill works without having to conveniently spend thousands of hours and dollars on a system that may be ripping you off.

I mean If you want to discuss a brilliant marketing scam. If you haven't tried it then how do you know it is bad for you. Us one of the oldest in the book.

 

[dvcochran]

Ok. So we are going down the secret of mystery training again?

If I haven't trained in Aikido/hapkido how can I judge?

If I have but haven't got a black belt then I never stayed long enough to learn the true secrets.

If I got a black belt then I haven't learned the advanced true secrets that brings everything else together.

I could show a MMA double leg working live. And the static drill should reflect that. You could go to a MMA open mat and wrestle a MMA guy and have him put a double leg on you. And that would reflect the drill.

You could watch a MMA competition and see that same double leg being used and that would reflect the drill.

You could enter a MMA competition and face a double leg and that would reflect the drill.

And then you could suggest that the drill works without having to conveniently spend thousands of hours and dollars on a system that may be ripping you off.

I mean If you want to discuss a brilliant marketing scam. If you haven't tried it then how do you know it is bad for you. Us one of the oldest in the book.

I get where you are coming from. But the same can be said for most every MA style. No, they are not always as overt as MMA but they are certainly not mystic. That does not make them invalid from jump. Just like MMA is not valid from jump.

 

[skribs]

If you trained right it would take less years.

Doctors must train wrong, because it takes 12-15 years before they're licensed. It only took me a couple of months to study for my Security+ test to be certified according to my job requirements. Therefore, by your logic, I'm smarter than a doctor, because I trained right and they trained wrong.

These are techniques with a high skill curve compared to a double-leg. With a double leg there's a lot of nuance that goes into making it work on a resisting target, with these there's a lot of nuance that goes into making them work, period.

And look if you can't reliably put guys down in the ring (Or anywhere for that matter) you can't make up excuses that your techniques still work.

I mean, I'm pretty sure my shotgun will put someone down, but I can't test that in the ring. Can't go around testing that in public either. By your logic, my shotgun wouldn't work in self-defense.

Ok. So we are going down the secret of mystery training again?

If I haven't trained in Aikido/hapkido how can I judge?

If I have but haven't got a black belt then I never stayed long enough to learn the true secrets.

If I got a black belt then I haven't learned the advanced true secrets that brings everything else together.

It's not secret mystery training. It's staying long enough to actually learn things. Of course when you label it "secret mystery training" it sounds cringe. I could label MMA fighters as "testosterone-fueled fist-jocks" and suddenly that sounds cringe, too.

I could show a MMA double leg working live. And the static drill should reflect that. You could go to a MMA open mat and wrestle a MMA guy and have him put a double leg on you. And that would reflect the drill.

You could watch a MMA competition and see that same double leg being used and that would reflect the drill.

You could enter a MMA competition and face a double leg and that would reflect the drill.

And then you could suggest that the drill works without having to conveniently spend thousands of hours and dollars on a system that may be ripping you off.

I mean If you want to discuss a brilliant marketing scam. If you haven't tried it then how do you know it is bad for you. Us one of the oldest in the book.

And yet I've heard you make the claim that if you learn the technique outside of a sporting context, you still don't know it. If someone were to post a TKD Double-Leg or a Kung Fu double-leg, you'd just say "they didn't learn it at an MMA gym, so they don't really know it."

 

[oftheherd1]

Ok. So there is a concept in martial arts that a whole bunch of stuff has to have happened before you wind up in that devastating arm bar.

And to be a good martial artist you need to start creating an environment where this arm bar works well before there is an arm bar.

So an arm bar takes two things. For you to isolate their arm and for you to break their posture. (Especially standing because you don't have the advantage of being able to throw your whole body at it.)

Now that is a lot to ask for in a fight. And especially for any period of time it takes to actually arm bar someone. Which is a hell of a lot in four or five punches a second fighting times.

So this is where being incredibly cagey about how people train comes in because this process is almost always short cutted by people who don't have a good understanding of what they are doing. You get these terms like I will use their momentum or take an opportunity or other meaningless phrases.

And what you normally wind up getting is training to reflect when a bad guy does something fundamentally silly for long enough to take advantage of.

Unfortunately even dumb bad guys quite often are not that dumb and will do simple defences that make arm bars basically impossible if you are not that good at them.

(You see this with police a bit where they wind up beating on a guy to get that arm and posture break)

So to get arm bars or arm breaks generally you need to break their posture first. Gain a position and isolate their arm. Unfortunately people spend years on grappling arts to try to get just that bit right. That is an incredibly nuanced process and is the reason good grapplers beat bad grapplers pretty consistently.

So if you are talking about someone throwing some slack punch or making a dead straight arm grab then arm bars, arm breaks and martial arts are simple. Unfortunately they also tend not to work.

So an arm break bar kind of can and kind of can't be substituted as an arm break. Some of them do both. There are some like arm drags where you can pressure the joint but not get it to break. There are some shoulder throws that torque the arm as you fall.

As I said it is complicated.

Thanks for taking the time to post your explanation. Much of what you say is true if you are moving slowly and not using other breaks, twists, distractors, or pressure points. In the Hapkido I studied, we normally did that. It helps.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. So we are going down the secret of mystery training again?

If I haven't trained in Aikido/hapkido how can I judge?

If I have but haven't got a black belt then I never stayed long enough to learn the true secrets.

If I got a black belt then I haven't learned the advanced true secrets that brings everything else together.

I could show a MMA double leg working live. And the static drill should reflect that. You could go to a MMA open mat and wrestle a MMA guy and have him put a double leg on you. And that would reflect the drill.

You could watch a MMA competition and see that same double leg being used and that would reflect the drill.

You could enter a MMA competition and face a double leg and that would reflect the drill.

And then you could suggest that the drill works without having to conveniently spend thousands of hours and dollars on a system that may be ripping you off.

I mean If you want to discuss a brilliant marketing scam. If you haven't tried it then how do you know it is bad for you. Us one of the oldest in the book.

This again confuses “most reliable” with “works”. Some techniques work, but not as reliably against well-trained opponents who expect you to also be trained. Those done make it into competition for reasons that should be obvious.

And some techniques work only with lots of training and experience. And sometimes that is precisely the point.

 

[dvcochran]

Ok. So we are going down the secret of mystery training again?

No sir. Only You jumped to that narrative. Everyone else who crawled out from under their rock 20 years ago or longer have long since debunked that line of thinking.

 

[skribs]

No sir. Only You jumped to that narrative. Everyone else who crawled out from under their rock 20 years ago or longer have long since debunked that line of thinking.

There are some schools that try to have the air of mystery. They'll tell you there are secret techniques you can only learn at black belt.

This is different from a school in which you consistently improve until black belt and then continue to learn, which is what I think (most of us) we're talking about.

 

[drop bear]

I get where you are coming from. But the same can be said for most every MA style. No, they are not always as overt as MMA but they are certainly not mystic. That does not make them invalid from jump. Just like MMA is not valid from jump.

Ok. The reason for packaging to conceal the product is quite often because the product isn't what it is cracked up to be.

You are suggesting this deception is not evidence for bad product. And I am suggesting it is.

Otherwise any fu fu magic might work. Voodoo could work. I don't know I haven't done it. Meth might be good for you. I haven't tried it.

The only method any of us can use to stop running in to brick walls is to go by the evidence we can see.

Not the evidence we can't.

So when there is nothing that supports a story I can deem it as false. Especially when there are other stories that do have evidence. Like Aikido competitions.

So when we look at a technique with no evidence behind it. Or a system with no way of checking on it. I can call shenanigans. As a reasonable logical approach.

What I can't do is compete point for point against fantasy. There is a finite amount of reality and there is an infinite amount of BS.

And this is a concept I raised a wile back about a thing called the celestial tea cup.

You think your argument works but it isn't based on logic.

 

[drop bear]

There are some schools that try to have the air of mystery. They'll tell you there are secret techniques you can only learn at black belt.

This is different from a school in which you consistently improve until black belt and then continue to learn, which is what I think (most of us) we're talking about.

Really?