Hapkido schools a dying breed?

[skribs]

The reason techniques are applied with a compliance in class is, A: the attacker can feel what its like when the technique is applied correctly, B: the receiver can feel what its like when the technique is applied correctly, only then can the student start to understand bio mechanics and fulcrum points, then you can start resistance training.

My progression through a technique is:

1. Active compliance
2. Passive compliance
3. Passive resistance
4. Active resistance
5. Creative use (sparring, experimentation, etc)

The other thing I find with beginners is some will refuse to be thrown and end up hurting their own wrist out of stubbornness. That is another reason compliance is good in beginners.

Even a novice at locks etc will know, if you are trying to apply a wrist lock for example, and its not happening because your opponent has put strength/tension in the wrist, their mind is in their wrist, so revert to a good old smack in the face, throat, plums, etc. It amazes me why people think, someone who practices an art form, that uses a lot of locks etc, are one dimensional fighters.

My hapkido is much more focused on the grappling. We're taught that if one lock fails, you usually have another lock available. If I'm trying to go inside and you pull outside, then going outside becomes much easier. If I'm trying to go forward and you push back, then going backward is easier. If I try to flex your arm to get a tight v-lock or z-lock and you lock your arm straight, then there are other wristlocks that open up that put tension on the elbow.

However, going back to the point I quoted above - at the beginning, you need to learn all of these techniques individually. You need to learn the inside technique and the form of it, and the outside technique and the form. Otherwise you don't have a solid technique to switch to when you feel resistance.

I also think this is a problem with many of the comments on demonstration videos. Those videos are showing the beginner-level version of the technique (with compliance), but they get ripped apart as if the single technique is the entire fighting style.

 

[Gweilo]

I agree, when I was taught, then taught others, learn how the technique worked, and when it didnt work, learn the bio mechanics and fulcrum points, and transition in combat (as you pointed out move to another joint, part of the body, another technique like a strike).
Done correctly, it does not matter if your opponent is stronger, very little strength is needed if the angles and pressure are applied correctly. Knowing your movement, and being sensitive to your opponents movement, makes applying locks far easier.
Many a time people have told me, wrist locks etc dont work, I am very happy to prove them wrong, and demonstrate the techniques to them, when they have finished rubbing their wrist etc.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, Im not saying its easy, but this just goes to show peoples misunderstanging of Hapkido and its techniques, it has techniques to deal with an aggressive attack, from a mma style upright type, once you clinch you are playing their game, I agree Hapkido is weak in ground techniques, which is where training a grappling/wrestling art helps, but other than that, your posts reaks of not understanding. Hapkido has elements that orignate of Daito ryu, and techniques similar to Karate, tkd, judo. Going for a lock is not the game plan, its an opportunity you take if it arises, but your lack of beleif that they cannot be applied to you, is a weakness to you.

It depends what you spend your time on. I have spent time going for arm locks when I could have been going for something more effective because I was paid to. If I get an arm Iock I have pretty much guaranteed access to their back. And then I can suplex them or choke them and possibly kill them.

So if you are farting around trying standing arm locks I am in a better situation than I could have been otherwise had you taken a position that is more dangerous.

And they are a lot harder to do. Which is why we never see them done live. And they are almost always trained unrealistically which is why I am always suspect of arm bar specialists who can't provide any evidence.

And you can really only get reliable arm bars from clinching because you need to break their structure first.

 

[Gweilo]

It depends what you spend your time on. I have spent time going for arm locks when I could have been going for something more effective because I was paid to. If I get an arm Iock I have pretty much guaranteed access to their back. And then I can suplex them or choke them and possibly kill them.

So if you are farting around trying standing arm locks I am in a better situation than I could have been otherwise had you taken a position that is more dangerous.

And they are a lot harder to do. Which is why we never see them done live. And they are almost always trained unrealistically which is why I am always suspect of arm bar specialists who can't provide any evidence.

And you can really only get reliable arm bars from clinching because you need to break their structure first.

Transition in the flow of combat, real combat is rarely decided by a single technique, the ability to make transitions from one hold or contact to another is crucial, its the ability to recognise these opportunities during the flow of combat, which is constantly changing. Yes for every technique there is a counter, and forvevery counter, there is a counter, with a host of techniques/strength, the hallmark of a good fighter is that persons ability to transition from one technique to another, constantly adjusting to their opponents movement, balance and power, if you are truely in sync with your opponents movements, you can transition efficeintly, which is vital in this senario/discussion, strength then becomes mostly irrelevant.
If you understand the limitations of the body, and as I said earlier, you understand why the techniques of holds/locks work, and the type of force that needs to be applied (which does take practice, and practice with resistance), along with transitions, you can create, modify techniques to suit the changing flow of combat.
So, yes you can change it up, but so can I, to actually beleive, someone proficeint in holds/locks, is going to stand still, and try to implement such techniques, then you are very much mistaken.
Suplex,? you should change your name to Hulk Hogan, whats next, a piledriver, or a drop bear superfly jimmy snooker?
OOOHYEAHHH.

 

[skribs]

Yes for every technique there is a counter, and forvevery counter, there is a counter, with a host of techniques/strength

I'm curious how many "steps ahead" you can take a technique before you hit a loopback call, where it's not a new concept but just a counter that was already in the thought process before.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Lets make this a separate post about how you could be operating in an unethical manner if you were teaching standing arm bars.

That sissor

Transition in the flow of combat, real combat is rarely decided by a single technique, the ability to make transitions from one hold or contact to another is crucial, its the ability to recognise these opportunities during the flow of combat, which is constantly changing. Yes for every technique there is a counter, and forvevery counter, there is a counter, with a host of techniques/strength, the hallmark of a good fighter is that persons ability to transition from one technique to another, constantly adjusting to their opponents movement, balance and power, if you are truely in sync with your opponents movements, you can transition efficeintly, which is vital in this senario/discussion, strength then becomes mostly irrelevant.
If you understand the limitations of the body, and as I said earlier, you understand why the techniques of holds/locks work, and the type of force that needs to be applied (which does take practice, and practice with resistance), along with transitions, you can create, modify techniques to suit the changing flow of combat.
So, yes you can change it up, but so can I, to actually beleive, someone proficeint in holds/locks, is going to stand still, and try to implement such techniques, then you are very much mistaken.
Suplex,? you should change your name to Hulk Hogan, whats next, a piledriver, or a drop bear superfly jimmy snooker?
OOOHYEAHHH.

Yeah but when you understand arm bars and the specifics you will understand their limitations more.

The counter for arm bars is not being crap.

Being suplexed in a street fight is possibly one of the most terrifying prospects you can face as it can break your neck.

 

[skribs]

The counter for arm bars is not being crap.

Really? According to stats you posted in the general thread: UFC Statistics : 5,000 Fights Tracked! - UFC Secrets Arm-bars make up the most common arm submission in UFC.

Are UFC fighters crap?

 

[Gweilo]

I'm curious how many "steps ahead" you can take a technique before you hit a loopback call, where it's not a new concept but just a counter that was already in the thought process before.

It depends on the opponent, in my own experience, some are easily led, others have to be encouraged or manipulated into a favourable position.

 

[Gweilo]

Ok. Lets make this a separate post about how you could be operating in an unethical manner if you were teaching standing arm bars.

That sissor


Yeah but when you understand arm bars and the specifics you will understand their limitations more.

The counter for arm bars is not being crap.

Being suplexed in a street fight is possibly one of the most terrifying prospects you can face as it can break your neck.

Heres the problem, its your perception of the arm bar, leverage on the elbow can be done with my elbow, knee or hip, shoulder, even my head, you see it as a submission move, I see it as a control movement, a transition movement or a submission movement. A senario, I try to perform a standing arm bar, opponent responds to defend, as he moves to defend, I have already moved on to, could be a strike, could be a structure break, could be the neck, or a stamp on the foot.
You say its impossible to implement a standing arm bar in a sd situation, others here have said nothing is impossible, but they would not try it, unless it was a sitting duck, or use it as a way to suck you in to another move, yet you still want to go back and argue about a standing arm bar, and quite willing to beleive someone is going to stand still, and let you suplex them.

 

[Gweilo]

Your video is a good point, even though its a training session, its a very basic set of skills, if you have watched it all, you should understand what others are saying, these takedowns with locks will work on unskilled individuals, have a fair chance of working on more experienced individuals, and less chance of working experienced individuals, so once the basic principle is taught, and the students learn the restrictions of human body, and are allowed to explore/experiment, transitions will come quicker. The very 1st technique in the video, lets just imagine, the women is defending against a big powerful drop bear, and she does not catch the strike cleanly, in this video although the technique has a higher % of success, she has no follow up, no transition, shes left herself open to a secondry attack, which is a problem with this type of technique taught in the way of this video, if she is taught all the holds and locks, allowed to experiment, train with increasing resistance, and understands fully how the anatonmy of her opponents arm works, in this senario, she has a higher % to succeed, because she can transition to another hold or lock.
Transitions are more than that, if the students in the video were taught the correct stance, with correct foot placement, their movement would be a lot smoother, add this and circular movement, in the 1st technique with the woman defending, would have taken the chap down with very little effort, or performed the break with ease.

 

[drop bear]

Really? According to stats you posted in the general thread: UFC Statistics : 5,000 Fights Tracked! - UFC Secrets Arm-bars make up the most common arm submission in UFC.

Are UFC fighters crap?

Are any of them standing arm bars?

 

[drop bear]

Heres the problem, its your perception of the arm bar, leverage on the elbow can be done with my elbow, knee or hip, shoulder, even my head, you see it as a submission move, I see it as a control movement, a transition movement or a submission movement. A senario, I try to perform a standing arm bar, opponent responds to defend, as he moves to defend, I have already moved on to, could be a strike, could be a structure break, could be the neck, or a stamp on the foot.
You say its impossible to implement a standing arm bar in a sd situation, others here have said nothing is impossible, but they would not try it, unless it was a sitting duck, or use it as a way to suck you in to another move, yet you still want to go back and argue about a standing arm bar, and quite willing to beleive someone is going to stand still, and let you suplex them.

Yes. Taking someone's back and suplexing them is much higher percentage.

 

[Gweilo]

I say this in the nicest way possible, WTF you smoking?
You got more chance of the queen of England, giving you a bj, than me giving you my back.

 

[skribs]

Are any of them standing arm bars?

Irrelevant. We're not talking about that technique right now.

You made the claim that armbars have significant limitations. Yet it's the most popular arm submission in the UFC, and some people have made their career based on that technique (Ronda Rousey).

You're also insinuating that because we take Hapkido instead of BJJ or MMA, that we can't know about how an armbar works. Which, I get that you think I know nothing*, but that comment wasn't directed at me. You seem to have this assumption that if you don't take a specific art, your training in what that art teaches is useless. That if you don't take BJJ, you don't know anything about submissions, if you don't take Judo or Wrestling you won't know anything about take-downs or throws, if you don't take boxing you won't know how to punch. I've seen you make these claims before, and not just directed at me.

So what is it? Are you so arrogant that you think your way is the only way you can learn a martial skill? Or are you so insecure in your training that you need to bash everyone else who takes a different art, in order to make you feel good about your training style? I've seen a lot of posters on various sites that have similar mentalities to yours, but you're the most extreme case of it that I've ever seen. Believe it or not, people can learn how techniques work without taking the specific arts you deem acceptable.

 

[drop bear]

So what is it? Are you so arrogant that you think your way is the only way you can learn a martial skill? Or are you so insecure in your training that you need to bash everyone else who takes a different art,

No if you are saying a bunch of dumb stuff works. And then can't show it working ever. And nobody else can show it working and you can't show your training. And there is literally nothing to indicate you understand martial arts at all.

Then I feel I have every right to be sceptical.

That isn't insecurity. It is just common sense.

Insecurity is doing a martial arts you hope works but will never risk it to test. And then trying to fool people with all this silly misinformation to increase your status as a martial artist.

You don't understand there is a difference between a standing and a ground arm bar. Thats fine. I do.

You don't understand that a lot of what you suggest won't work in self defense.

Me having to constantly correct you is not my fault. It is yours. Go out. Use these techniques and concepts then come back and we could have a real discussion.

 

[drop bear]

I say this in the nicest way possible, WTF you smoking?
You got more chance of the queen of England, giving you a bj, than me giving you my back.

You would not be able to stop me. Not in a mean way. I can't stop better grapplers from taking my back.

It is an element you learn from realistic training.

 

[skribs]

You don't understand there is a difference between a standing and a ground arm bar. Thats fine. I do.

When have I ever said this? Every discussion we've had I've explained the differences. You're so far out in left field you've left the stadium.

 

[drop bear]

When have I ever said this? Every discussion we've had I've explained the differences. You're so far out in left field you've left the stadium.

So you were just being silly and taking arm bars as ground submissions out of context.

 

[Gweilo]

So you were just being silly and taking arm bars as ground submissions out of context.

Ok, so will you admit, an arm bar can be quickly substituted as a elbow/arm break technique?

 

[drop bear]

Ok, so will you admit, an arm bar can be quickly substituted as a elbow/arm break technique?

It is such a complicated question.

I don't think arms just break very easily and so there is a huge risk to quickly substituting an arm bar for an arm break unless it is just an arm bar done hard.

The biggest issue is if you try to substitute good fulcrums for speed you wind up loosing the arm.

So you can but you run the risk of the whole thing not working and having the guy squirm out.

Or we rely on some outrageous assumptions like the guy is going to grab you with a dead straight arm or something and then not be able to kink it a bit when you go for it.