Hapkido schools a dying breed?

[drop bear]

No sir. Only You jumped to that narrative. Everyone else who crawled out from under their rock 20 years ago or longer have long since debunked that line of thinking.

Obviously not.

They are just better at rationalizing it.

 

[dvcochran]

Ok. The reason for packaging to conceal the product is quite often because the product isn't what it is cracked up to be.

You are suggesting this deception is not evidence for bad product. And I am suggesting it is.

Otherwise any fu fu magic might work. Voodoo could work. I don't know I haven't done it. Meth might be good for you. I haven't tried it.

The only method any of us can use to stop running in to brick walls is to go by the evidence we can see.

Not the evidence we can't.

So when there is nothing that supports a story I can deem it as false. Especially when there are other stories that do have evidence. Like Aikido competitions.

So when we look at a technique with no evidence behind it. Or a system with no way of checking on it. I can call shenanigans. As a reasonable logical approach.

What I can't do is compete point for point against fantasy. There is a finite amount of reality and there is an infinite amount of BS.

And this is a concept I raised a wile back about a thing called the celestial tea cup.

You think your argument works but it isn't based on logic.

Ok, I cannot disagree with that reasoning. But why paint All TMA with the same brush? ALL MMA concepts came out of TMA or wrestling. No matter what modern name is put on techniques. How does that track?

 

[dvcochran]

There are some schools that try to have the air of mystery. They'll tell you there are secret techniques you can only learn at black belt.

This is different from a school in which you consistently improve until black belt and then continue to learn, which is what I think (most of us) we're talking about.

I still think that crap went out the window about 2 decades ago. It would take a very gullible mind to buy into that line of thinking.

 

[drop bear]

Doctors must train wrong, because it takes 12-15 years before they're licensed. It only took me a couple of months to study for my Security+ test to be certified according to my job requirements. Therefore, by your logic, I'm smarter than a doctor, because I trained right and they trained wrong.

These are techniques with a high skill curve compared to a double-leg. With a double leg there's a lot of nuance that goes into making it work on a resisting target, with these there's a lot of nuance that goes into making them work, period.



I mean, I'm pretty sure my shotgun will put someone down, but I can't test that in the ring. Can't go around testing that in public either. By your logic, my shotgun wouldn't work in self-defense.



It's not secret mystery training. It's staying long enough to actually learn things. Of course when you label it "secret mystery training" it sounds cringe. I could label MMA fighters as "testosterone-fueled fist-jocks" and suddenly that sounds cringe, too.



And yet I've heard you make the claim that if you learn the technique outside of a sporting context, you still don't know it. If someone were to post a TKD Double-Leg or a Kung Fu double-leg, you'd just say "they didn't learn it at an MMA gym, so they don't really know it."

Ok.

So we have a claim that you have these martial skills that nobody can verify based on a system nobody knows if it works.

So unlike being a doctor who we could look at their ability to heal sick people we know literally nothing.

The difference between a double leg and your arm bar is we can see it work and who makes it work.

With your arm bar we know literally nothing.

With your shot gun we can test to see if it works. We could look at people shot by guns and see if it works.

Vs. Literally nothing.

Literally nothing is the definition of mystery training. I mean seriously. What do we know so far?

Nothing?

Well Mabye that is a mystery then.

If you learn a technique from someone who can't do it there are two ways of finding out. And this is important.

They either do it and fail consistently.

Or they don't do it and tell you literally nothing. Hiding behind some sort of mysterious training.

I mean this should be pretty simple.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, I cannot disagree with that reasoning. But why paint All TMA with the same brush? ALL MMA concepts came out of TMA or wrestling. No matter what modern name is put on techniques. How does that track?

I haven't. I separate them in to evidence based and non evidence based.

The issue is sport just has a lot more evidence. And so people complain that I am biased to sport.

Not my job to support people's claims. If you want to say TMA works come up with something to show it works.

 

[dvcochran]

Ok.

So we have a claim that you have these martial skills that nobody can verify based on a system nobody knows if it works.

So unlike being a doctor who we could look at their ability to heal sick people we know literally nothing.

The difference between a double leg and your arm bar is we can see it work and who makes it work.

With your arm bar we know literally nothing.

With your shot gun we can test to see if it works. We could look at people shot by guns and see if it works.

Vs. Literally nothing.

Literally nothing is the definition of mystery training. I mean seriously. What do we know so far?

Nothing?

Well Mabye that is a mystery then.

If you learn a technique from someone who can't do it there are two ways of finding out. And this is important.

They either do it and fail consistently.

Or they don't do it and tell you literally nothing. Hiding behind some sort of mysterious training.

I mean this should be pretty simple.

There are many other narratives here.
Just a couple; They could do 'it' and fail until they become proficient at it. Typical of MA's of any style, including MMA.

They don't do it unless they really need to because that is the way they were trained/raised.

I don't know you at all. Don't know what you do for work. Don't know anything about you.
But this I am certain of this, my experience has taught me that people who make such strong opinions either got pummeled once/a few times and never got over it, run in a Very small self-edifying circle, just set on the couch and throw stones, or stay juiced Way too much.

Man, get over yourself and let others, and yourself enjoy the forum. You are nothing but a distraction.

 

[drop bear]

I still think that crap went out the window about 2 decades ago. It would take a very gullible mind to buy into that line of thinking.

There is very little difference between using hardooken blasts and dead drilling. Or setting up fall guys to over represent a success rate.

The gullible mind is basically the same.

Multiple sparring. If two people of about your ability really want you. Your success rate plummets

Now do people like to people just wailing on a guy with no chance?

Apparently not.

So we start inserting these elements of training were the person with no chance suddenly start to win.

Nobody is that gullible to think that they are really winning. Yet people are still training it.

 

[drop bear]

There are many other narratives here.
Just a couple; They could do 'it' and fail until they become proficient at it. Typical of MA's of any style, including MMA.

They don't do it unless they really need to because that is the way they were trained/raised.

I don't know you at all. Don't know what you do for work. Don't know anything about you.
But this I am certain of this, my experience has taught me that people who make such strong opinions either got pummeled once/a few times and never got over it, run in a Very small self-edifying circle, just set on the couch and throw stones, or stay juiced Way too much.

Man, get over yourself and let others, and yourself enjoy the forum. You are nothing but a distraction.

That's fine but if you are supporting a fantasy forum.

What justifies the behavior towards people like Rat?

 

[dvcochran]

That's fine but if you are supporting a fantasy forum.

What justifies the behavior towards people like Rat?

Can you further explain? I do not understand what you are asking.

 

[skribs]

With your shot gun we can test to see if it works. We could look at people shot by guns and see if it works.

Not by standards I've seen you put forth regarding other techniques. In another thread on wristlocks, your comment was something along the lines of that if it works against criminals, it doesn't prove it works because you don't know if they were skilled or not. So how do we know that the people who were shot by guns weren't just unskilled?

There is very little difference between using hardooken blasts and dead drilling. Or setting up fall guys to over represent a success rate.

Who said anything about dead drilling? Increased resistance is the key to becoming proficient in these techniques.

I haven't. I separate them in to evidence based and non evidence based.

The issue is sport just has a lot more evidence. And so people complain that I am biased to sport.

Not my job to support people's claims. If you want to say TMA works come up with something to show it works.

You're not biased to sport. You are exclusive to it. You are very quick to bash TMAs, tell anyone who takes a TMA that they don't know how to do anything because they don't fight in the cage. You always have some reason why the other person doesn't know a technique or why someone's training is worthless. You also tend to take comments way out of context or use hyperbole to make your points.

A bias toward sport is fine. That's what you enjoy. That's the training model you have the most faith in, and it validates you in a way that fits with your worldview. It is possible to love and be committed to MMA and the sport-based arts, and to also not be a jerk to everyone who trains a different martial art than you. It's possible to train BJJ and boxing, and NOT jump down the throat of people who train Hapkido and Taekwondo whenever they talk about a technique that you don't train.

I believe you know a lot about MMA. It would be nice if you would come into threads and share your perspectives from MMA so I could see some different ideas, than for you to come in with this air of superiority like I'm a lower class citizen because I don't take your art. It would be nice if we could have productive discussions instead of feeling like I'm always on the defensive, because you're aggressive in your posting. This forum isn't supposed to be a fight or a sparring match, it's supposed to be a place for us to collaborate and share ideas.

For example, when I watch a boxing footwork video, I'm looking for what I can take from it and apply to my footwork. Some things don't apply, because footwork for kicks is a little bit different. The boxing rules of always staying in the orthodox stance and never crossing your feet don't work too well for kicking. It would be very easy for me to look at a boxer and say "it's stupid to only stay on one side" or "they don't do cross-steps because their legs because their balance sucks." It's quite easy to bash someone who has a different style. But I don't do that. I look for the way they move and what I can learn from that and weave into what I do.

I'm not expecting you to take my techniques and work them into your fighting. But what I would like is for you to accept our differences instead of always trying to argue over them. Yes, we have different training styles and goals. Why is that such a bad thing?

What justifies the behavior towards people like Rat?

First off, why bring him into this? He's not part of this thread.

But since you brought him up, he's the kind of guy who could benefit from you pushing MMA. He tried TKD, didn't like the forms, and didn't feel like he could trust what his instructor taught. His two biggest concerns that come up time and time again for why he doesn't take classes are that he doesn't want to waste his time on kata, and that he doesn't want to waste time if the instruction is no good. MMA (or one of it's component arts like boxing or BJJ) would be perfect for him. Have you brought that up to him?

 

[Gweilo]

That's fine but if you are supporting a fantasy forum.

What justifies the behavior towards people like Rat?[/QUOTE

The behaviour to people like yourself and rat is really quite simple, you have little respect for others and their veiws, you jump into conversations shouting bs, then back it up by youtubejitsu, you have yourcway of training, and that is great, and you say it works for you, and thats great, but to quote others as wu wu voodoo magic, especially when you have no experience. When you are argueing with people like dvcochran you are telling someone who holds a 5th dan in his art, that he is incorrect, when asked on your experience in that art, you have none, then you start claiming, there is no evidence, or secret techniques, when you dont understand the very basics, of what others have spent years training.

 

[Gweilo]

The behaviour to people like yourself and rat is really quite simple, you have little respect for others and their veiws, you jump into conversations shouting bs, then back it up by youtubejitsu, you have yourcway of training, and that is great, and you say it works for you, and thats great, but to quote others as wu wu voodoo magic, especially when you have no experience. When you are argueing with people like dvcochran you are telling someone who holds a 5th dan in his art, that he is incorrect, when asked on your experience in that art, you have none, then you start claiming, there is no evidence, or secret techniques, when you dont understand the very basics, of what others have spent years training.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ok.

So we have a claim that you have these martial skills that nobody can verify based on a system nobody knows if it works.

So unlike being a doctor who we could look at their ability to heal sick people we know literally nothing.

The difference between a double leg and your arm bar is we can see it work and who makes it work.

With your arm bar we know literally nothing.

With your shot gun we can test to see if it works. We could look at people shot by guns and see if it works.

Vs. Literally nothing.

Literally nothing is the definition of mystery training. I mean seriously. What do we know so far?

Nothing?

Well Mabye that is a mystery then.

If you learn a technique from someone who can't do it there are two ways of finding out. And this is important.

They either do it and fail consistently.

Or they don't do it and tell you literally nothing. Hiding behind some sort of mysterious training.

I mean this should be pretty simple.

I checked out 4 different places that looked at submissions in the UFC. And all of them listed arm bar as the third most popular submission for ending a fight. So clearly it works.

 

[dvcochran]

Not by standards I've seen you put forth regarding other techniques. In another thread on wristlocks, your comment was something along the lines of that if it works against criminals, it doesn't prove it works because you don't know if they were skilled or not. So how do we know that the people who were shot by guns weren't just unskilled?



Who said anything about dead drilling? Increased resistance is the key to becoming proficient in these techniques.



You're not biased to sport. You are exclusive to it. You are very quick to bash TMAs, tell anyone who takes a TMA that they don't know how to do anything because they don't fight in the cage. You always have some reason why the other person doesn't know a technique or why someone's training is worthless. You also tend to take comments way out of context or use hyperbole to make your points.

A bias toward sport is fine. That's what you enjoy. That's the training model you have the most faith in, and it validates you in a way that fits with your worldview. It is possible to love and be committed to MMA and the sport-based arts, and to also not be a jerk to everyone who trains a different martial art than you. It's possible to train BJJ and boxing, and NOT jump down the throat of people who train Hapkido and Taekwondo whenever they talk about a technique that you don't train.

I believe you know a lot about MMA. It would be nice if you would come into threads and share your perspectives from MMA so I could see some different ideas, than for you to come in with this air of superiority like I'm a lower class citizen because I don't take your art. It would be nice if we could have productive discussions instead of feeling like I'm always on the defensive, because you're aggressive in your posting. This forum isn't supposed to be a fight or a sparring match, it's supposed to be a place for us to collaborate and share ideas.

For example, when I watch a boxing footwork video, I'm looking for what I can take from it and apply to my footwork. Some things don't apply, because footwork for kicks is a little bit different. The boxing rules of always staying in the orthodox stance and never crossing your feet don't work too well for kicking. It would be very easy for me to look at a boxer and say "it's stupid to only stay on one side" or "they don't do cross-steps because their legs because their balance sucks." It's quite easy to bash someone who has a different style. But I don't do that. I look for the way they move and what I can learn from that and weave into what I do.

I'm not expecting you to take my techniques and work them into your fighting. But what I would like is for you to accept our differences instead of always trying to argue over them. Yes, we have different training styles and goals. Why is that such a bad thing?



First off, why bring him into this? He's not part of this thread.

But since you brought him up, he's the kind of guy who could benefit from you pushing MMA. He tried TKD, didn't like the forms, and didn't feel like he could trust what his instructor taught. His two biggest concerns that come up time and time again for why he doesn't take classes are that he doesn't want to waste his time on kata, and that he doesn't want to waste time if the instruction is no good. MMA (or one of it's component arts like boxing or BJJ) would be perfect for him. Have you brought that up to him?

Very, very good post.

 

[dvcochran]

The behaviour to people like yourself and rat is really quite simple, you have little respect for others and their veiws, you jump into conversations shouting bs, then back it up by youtubejitsu, you have yourcway of training, and that is great, and you say it works for you, and thats great, but to quote others as wu wu voodoo magic, especially when you have no experience. When you are argueing with people like dvcochran you are telling someone who holds a 5th dan in his art, that he is incorrect, when asked on your experience in that art, you have none, then you start claiming, there is no evidence, or secret techniques, when you dont understand the very basics, of what others have spent years training.

FWIW, 7th Dan, but who's counting.

 

[Sensei Becker]

I don't find much videos of Hapkido online (and no schools where I live). Whenever I do find dojang videos of any kind they tend to be quite dated in time and not complete (in any other famous martial art I can get access to full gradings, full classes, etc).

This begs the question, is the martial art of Hapkido a dying breed?

No Hapkido is still one of the better arts to train in. Striking and Judo and Aikijujutsu mixed martial art. Ji Han Jae Sin Moo Hapkido is great.

 

[Gweilo]

FWIW, 7th Dan, but who's counting.

My appolgies

 

[skribs]

The behaviour to people like yourself and rat is really quite simple, you have little respect for others and their veiws, you jump into conversations shouting bs, then back it up by youtubejitsu, you have yourcway of training, and that is great, and you say it works for you, and thats great, but to quote others as wu wu voodoo magic, especially when you have no experience. When you are argueing with people like dvcochran you are telling someone who holds a 5th dan in his art, that he is incorrect, when asked on your experience in that art, you have none, then you start claiming, there is no evidence, or secret techniques, when you dont understand the very basics, of what others have spent years training.

The one difference (in favor of @drop bear ) is that DB actually trains under people within the training method he prefers.

 

[dvcochran]

The one difference (in favor of @drop bear ) is that DB actually trains under people within the training method he prefers.

Agree; that is the 'very small self-edifying circle I referred to earlier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you want to say TMA works come up with something I like to show it works.

I corrected it for you to state your position more accurately.