Hapkido schools a dying breed?

[Gweilo]

It is such a complicated question

Its only complicated when someone does not understand, exactly what the technique is or does.

I don't think arms just break very easily and so there is a huge risk to quickly substituting an arm bar for an arm break unless it is just an arm bar done hard.

A break to the elbow can quicly become an arm bar or vice a versa, its just a case of understanding the technique and why its applied.

The biggest issue is if you try to substitute good fulcrums for speed you wind up loosing the arm.

This happens when you are not well practiced or do not understand the technique.

So you can but you run the risk of the whole thing not working and having the guy squirm out.

This happens when you are not well practiced or do not understand the technique.

Or we rely on some outrageous assumptions like the guy is going to grab you with a dead straight arm or something and then not be able to kink it a bit when you go for it.

Conjecture and fear speaking.

 

[dvcochran]

The biggest issue is if you try to substitute good fulcrums for speed you wind up loosing the arm.

So you can but you run the risk of the whole thing not working and having the guy squirm out.

Fully agree.
One thing I do in class for explanation to others and for my own understanding/practice is show how the application of a technique changes between a person shorter, the same height, or taller than you are. Plus a person who is quite bulky, whether from muscle or otherwise. This directly falls in to the "there is no one size fits all" category for technique.

Some of the best training a person gets is when their technique is Not working. It is the best case scenario to learn either what you are doing wrong in a technique or, for various reasons, that you may have to modify the technique to work for you.
What the partner/Uke does during drills is just as important as what the person practicing the drill does. Being
compliant has to get progressively less compliant.

 

[skribs]

I don't think arms just break very easily and so there is a huge risk to quickly substituting an arm bar for an arm break unless it is just an arm bar done hard.

The biggest issue is if you try to substitute good fulcrums for speed you wind up loosing the arm.

So you can but you run the risk of the whole thing not working and having the guy squirm out.

I think we may have found the root of our issue, it may be a terminology thing. For you, would you say the arm bar is the specific technique where you lock someone with your legs, and then pull the arm? The technique I'm describing as a "standing arm bar" is maybe what you would consider an "arm break". I call it a "standing arm bar" because the base mechanic is similar (using your leg as a fulcrum to hyper-extend the elbow), and because we have a lot of other arm breaks that would break the arm in a different way (mostly wrist breaks, a few shoulder breaks, a few that would twist the elbow instead of hyper-extend it).

In our Hapkido class, any technique that relies on locking that elbow straight is called an "arm bar". For example, if I twist your wrist so that your arm is straightened out, and then I push down on the elbow to hold you in place or to push you down to the ground, we would call that an "arm bar" to differentiate it from the other locks we use.

If so, you are entirely correct that if you don't have a good fulcrum and you just try and go fast, you can easily lose the arm or have the guy squirm out of it. And that was my point about the arm break - if the only option is that you get a perfect break or the guy squirms out, it ain't gonna work in a fighting rule system where you're not supposed to actually break the arm or choke someone out - but get them to the point just before. If you don't have them pinned down, squirming out becomes very easy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

ATTENTION ALL POSTERS:

Please remember that this is a friendly martial arts forum, and argue the topic, not the poster. Thank you.

William H
@kempodisciple
Martialtalk Moderator

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Going for a lock is not the game plan, its an opportunity you take if it arises

This. And there are a lot of folks in the aiki/hapki arts that don't seem to quite understand that point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In our Hapkido class, any technique that relies on locking that elbow straight is called an "arm bar". For example, if I twist your wrist so that your arm is straightened out, and then I push down on the elbow to hold you in place or to push you down to the ground, we would call that an "arm bar" to differentiate it from the other locks we use.

We do this in NGA, as well. We even examine 6 variants of the technique (which really could be called at least 6 different techniques). We do a similar thing with the term "leg sweep", applying the term to at least 5 different Judo techniques, eventually.

 

[drop bear]

Its only complicated when someone does not understand, exactly what the technique is or does.

It is only simple when someone doesn't understand the technique. They don't see the layers.

 

[oftheherd1]

It is only simple when someone doesn't understand the technique. They don't see the layers.

I'm not sure I understand you. What do you mean by layers?

 

[dvcochran]

It is only simple when someone doesn't understand the technique. They don't see the layers.

I cannot agree with that one.

 

[skribs]

I'm not sure I understand you. What do you mean by layers?

You see...arm bars are like an onion...

 

[drop bear]

I cannot agree with that one.

Not as suprised about that as you would imagine.

 

[drop bear]

You see...arm bars are like an onion...

Or an ogre. Yes pretty much.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure I understand you. What do you mean by layers?

Ok. So there is a concept in martial arts that a whole bunch of stuff has to have happened before you wind up in that devastating arm bar.

And to be a good martial artist you need to start creating an environment where this arm bar works well before there is an arm bar.

So an arm bar takes two things. For you to isolate their arm and for you to break their posture. (Especially standing because you don't have the advantage of being able to throw your whole body at it.)

Now that is a lot to ask for in a fight. And especially for any period of time it takes to actually arm bar someone. Which is a hell of a lot in four or five punches a second fighting times.

So this is where being incredibly cagey about how people train comes in because this process is almost always short cutted by people who don't have a good understanding of what they are doing. You get these terms like I will use their momentum or take an opportunity or other meaningless phrases.

And what you normally wind up getting is training to reflect when a bad guy does something fundamentally silly for long enough to take advantage of.

Unfortunately even dumb bad guys quite often are not that dumb and will do simple defences that make arm bars basically impossible if you are not that good at them.

(You see this with police a bit where they wind up beating on a guy to get that arm and posture break)

So to get arm bars or arm breaks generally you need to break their posture first. Gain a position and isolate their arm. Unfortunately people spend years on grappling arts to try to get just that bit right. That is an incredibly nuanced process and is the reason good grapplers beat bad grapplers pretty consistently.

So if you are talking about someone throwing some slack punch or making a dead straight arm grab then arm bars, arm breaks and martial arts are simple. Unfortunately they also tend not to work.

So an arm break bar kind of can and kind of can't be substituted as an arm break. Some of them do both. There are some like arm drags where you can pressure the joint but not get it to break. There are some shoulder throws that torque the arm as you fall.

As I said it is complicated.

 

[Gweilo]

So an arm bar takes two things. For you to isolate their arm and for you to break their posture. (Especially standing because you don't have the advantage of being able to throw your whole body at it.)

No, if the arm bar, or elbow lock is available, this can be your structure break.

Now that is a lot to ask for in a fight. And especially for any period of time it takes to actually arm bar someone. Which is a hell of a lot in four or five punches a second fighting times

Again no, once the lock is on or used as a structure break, you will be off balance, your combination will not reach.

You get these terms like I will use their momentum or take an opportunity or other meaningless phrases.

Again, you sound like someone who has spent a couple of hours training this, not many years, blending, absorbing, or redirecting your opponents power/vector/speed, is a well known, and well used stratergy/technique.

So to get arm bars or arm breaks generally you need to break their posture first.

Not true.

So if you are talking about someone throwing some slack punch or making a dead straight arm grab then arm bars, arm breaks and martial arts are simple. Unfortunately they also tend not to work.

No, you are not listening, these techniques are not a stratergy, they are an opportunity.

So an arm break bar kind of can and kind of can't be substituted as an arm break. Some of them do both. There are some like arm drags where you can pressure the joint but not get it to break. There are some shoulder throws that torque the arm as you fall.

Thiscwas my point, but i read this in another post, that i think defines my point, you have a lock or hold opportunity, it can be ramped up, by combining rotations ( a basic goose or chicken neck can be multiplied by combining rotations, as well as placing presure to the elbow you can rotate the lower arm, like the accelerator on a motorcycle grip), with good stance and foot position, you can rotate the body for extra torque, again moving you away from secondry attacks. This is your problem, you see a technique as a singularity,, not as a means to an end, or a sequence of techniques to control.

 

[drop bear]

Again, you sound like someone who has spent a couple of hours training this, not many years, blending, absorbing, or redirecting your opponents power/vector/speed, is a well known, and well used stratergy/technique.

So is punching them and not letting them punch you. But they are still meaningless terms.

 

[drop bear]

No, if the arm bar, or elbow lock is available, this can be your structure break.

Because as soon as you attack that arm they just don't move?

I pull the arm out straight, he walks forwards until it bends again. Their structure doesn't break. They just move a bit.

You mostly won't get a bent arm out straight like you think you do.

Have you ever wondered why knife defense. Which basically hinges on this idea that you can secure an arm mostly doesn't work?

I mean this isn't uncommon.

And he is using a rubber knife and attacking with just one hand and just repeating the same attack. This should be a gimme for standing locks.

Why didn't he blend, redirect or take an opportunity?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Or an ogre. Yes pretty much.

Or parfait. Everybody likes an armbar.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. So there is a concept in martial arts that a whole bunch of stuff has to have happened before you wind up in that devastating arm bar.

And to be a good martial artist you need to start creating an environment where this arm bar works well before there is an arm bar.

So an arm bar takes two things. For you to isolate their arm and for you to break their posture. (Especially standing because you don't have the advantage of being able to throw your whole body at it.)

Now that is a lot to ask for in a fight. And especially for any period of time it takes to actually arm bar someone. Which is a hell of a lot in four or five punches a second fighting times.

So this is where being incredibly cagey about how people train comes in because this process is almost always short cutted by people who don't have a good understanding of what they are doing. You get these terms like I will use their momentum or take an opportunity or other meaningless phrases.

And what you normally wind up getting is training to reflect when a bad guy does something fundamentally silly for long enough to take advantage of.

Unfortunately even dumb bad guys quite often are not that dumb and will do simple defences that make arm bars basically impossible if you are not that good at them.

(You see this with police a bit where they wind up beating on a guy to get that arm and posture break)

So to get arm bars or arm breaks generally you need to break their posture first. Gain a position and isolate their arm. Unfortunately people spend years on grappling arts to try to get just that bit right. That is an incredibly nuanced process and is the reason good grapplers beat bad grapplers pretty consistently.

So if you are talking about someone throwing some slack punch or making a dead straight arm grab then arm bars, arm breaks and martial arts are simple. Unfortunately they also tend not to work.

So an arm break bar kind of can and kind of can't be substituted as an arm break. Some of them do both. There are some like arm drags where you can pressure the joint but not get it to break. There are some shoulder throws that torque the arm as you fall.

As I said it is complicated.

I teach most standing arm bars as transition points (kind of like stances). Start with an arm drag, use the arm for some leverage. If it stays straight (probably the 4th most likely possibility out of 5, in broad terms), you can always finish with the arm bar as a takedown or break. If (more likely) the arm bends, you've used the beginning (what I term the entry) to break their structure and something else will present, even if it's only an opportunity to drive a knee in or such. If the arm drag entry doesn't lead to breaking the posture in any significant way, either you used it without an opportunity (that is, a place where an arm drag would be somewhat effective) or they countered.

In this approach, the lock becomes the least important part of the technique. The entry is what they're really learning to use, and the lock is just learning to manipulate a straight arm from several different positions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, if the arm bar, or elbow lock is available, this can be your structure break.

I'd have to see what you mean by that. The lock itself is not normally available unless the structure is broken or their body movement is restricted. An arm drag or arm roll will start that structure change and can be enough sometimes to make the lock available. But it may be that you include one or the other in your definition of the arm bar.

 

[skribs]

Ok. So there is a concept in martial arts that a whole bunch of stuff has to have happened before you wind up in that devastating arm bar.

And to be a good martial artist you need to start creating an environment where this arm bar works well before there is an arm bar.

So an arm bar takes two things. For you to isolate their arm and for you to break their posture. (Especially standing because you don't have the advantage of being able to throw your whole body at it.)

Now that is a lot to ask for in a fight. And especially for any period of time it takes to actually arm bar someone. Which is a hell of a lot in four or five punches a second fighting times.

So this is where being incredibly cagey about how people train comes in because this process is almost always short cutted by people who don't have a good understanding of what they are doing. You get these terms like I will use their momentum or take an opportunity or other meaningless phrases.

And what you normally wind up getting is training to reflect when a bad guy does something fundamentally silly for long enough to take advantage of.

Unfortunately even dumb bad guys quite often are not that dumb and will do simple defences that make arm bars basically impossible if you are not that good at them.

(You see this with police a bit where they wind up beating on a guy to get that arm and posture break)

So to get arm bars or arm breaks generally you need to break their posture first. Gain a position and isolate their arm. Unfortunately people spend years on grappling arts to try to get just that bit right. That is an incredibly nuanced process and is the reason good grapplers beat bad grapplers pretty consistently.

So if you are talking about someone throwing some slack punch or making a dead straight arm grab then arm bars, arm breaks and martial arts are simple. Unfortunately they also tend not to work.

So an arm break bar kind of can and kind of can't be substituted as an arm break. Some of them do both. There are some like arm drags where you can pressure the joint but not get it to break. There are some shoulder throws that torque the arm as you fall.

As I said it is complicated.

For the record, the technique at 1:43 is the technique I'm talking about when I refer to a standing armbar.

I only seek it if they land in that position. If they land on their stomach I use a different version or a different technique. If their arm is curled I use a different version or a different technique.

The basic concept of Hapkido is that you start by training various locks that can be used for take-downs and for limb destructions. Over time you learn how to read your opponent's resistance and quickly figure out what techniques are available, based on where they're pulling or pushing, and what position you are in. I've heard similar things from BJJ guys - that you need to know when to give up on a submission and transition into another technique.

The difference is Hapkido isn't supposed to be a long drawn-out fight or a chess match. In BJJ, your goal is typically to gain position, and then achieve the submission hold. In Hapkido, the idea is generally to have them on the ground with a broken arm before they realize you're fighting back. That's why we do a take-down and then immediately attack a joint - whatever joint we're holding onto. If we took you down by the leg we'll go for a heel hook, if we took you down by the arm we'll usually go for your wrist or shoulder.

The other thing is that we like to stay standing up. If there's another person present, then setting an armbar on the ground is the last place I want to be. And if the standing one doesn't work, I've still taken them down, where unless they're trained in BJJ I probably have the advantage.

It's a different approach than what you train. And I'm not going to say one is better than the other or not, because I've seen videos of how well BJJ works in self-defense, and I know how well it works in UFC. In fact, if I can find the spare time, I'd like to cross-train in BJJ. It's the top of my list of things I would like to try. Because I would like to learn the ground game.

When you worry about me teaching the standing armbar, all I'm teaching is that if you've got them in the position (at 1:43 in the video), put your knee under their elbow and pull. I'm not teaching anything other than that leverage point.

Edit to clarify: I'm not teaching the standing armbar as a mystical technique. I'm teaching it as an option if the circumstance is right. And the way we do our take-downs, it's right a fair amount of the time.