GrandMaster Steve? Who qualifies as an authentic Grandmaster?

[lklawson]

In my opinion, anyone who has been agreed by a large amount of other people to be a "Grandmaster" definitely qualifies as a Grandmaster.

Like L. Ron Hubbard? (just because I'm feeling my cheery-oats )

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Like L. Ron Hubbard? (just because I'm feeling my cheery-oats )

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Dude deserves the title grandmaster for a lot of things. One of the best at doing what he does.

 

[lklawson]

Look I’m not trying to start anything here. I’m talking about my opinion which is based on my experiences.

Sure. And it's your opinion. Your opinion does not have to comport with known history to still be your opinion. It just means that what you believe may not be historically accurate.

I work in surgery. I grew up in the inner city. My father was a career criminal with an extremely violent nature. I have an opinion on the current culture of martial arts as it stands. I am expressing What I believe to be MOSTLY true MOST of the time. How many of you have really seen a person maimed or killed in person? How many of you have seen some one die from violence that started as a result of trash talking? Have you had the blood on YOU? I’m talking about being human here. I have known a few tough guys, that’s how I know I’m not one. I have regrets about some of this stuff, that’s why I think the way I do. You do you, it’s just my opinion.

That all sounds scary but it really doesn't give you any more authority on the subject than anyone else. Seeing dead bodies and permanent injuries doesn't actually make you an authority on whether or not trash talking is or is not, well, anything at all.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Like L. Ron Hubbard? (just because I'm feeling my cheery-oats )

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Good point. Anyone who's ever taken a leadership course has gone over the "bases of power," and there are between 5 to 9 of them, depending on the model that the particular course follows.

The one being referred to here is called "reverent power," where one is able to assume a leadership role because of their charisma.

I'm personally not very trusting of charismatic people initially, and I tend to watch them very closely in order to decide whether or not they can be trusted. One thing that's common sense is that charisma does not equal competence and, in my experience, charismatic people use their charisma to get others to overlook their lack of competence.

That said, if I don't agree that a title like "grandmaster" should be conferred by those under a particular person's leadership, I hope everyone understands why.

 

[TenHands]

Like L. Ron Hubbard? (just because I'm feeling my cheery-oats )

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Not to sound like I'm backpedaling but the word "Grandmaster" doesn't necessarily carry a positive connotation. Case in point: the Austrian painter.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Dude deserves the title grandmaster for a lot of things. One of the best at doing what he does.

Galactic Overlord was already taken.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sure. And it's your opinion. Your opinion does not have to comport with known history to still be your opinion. It just means that what you believe may not be historically accurate.


That all sounds scary but it really doesn't give you any more authority on the subject than anyone else. Seeing dead bodies and permanent injuries doesn't actually make you an authority on whether or not trash talking is or is not, well, anything at all.

I never said I had any authority or expertise. Much like you, I do espouse an opinion. You obviously think that trash talk is an essential part of martial arts, and that’s ok. I won’t bother to debate you on this topic, and I won’t trash talk you either. I hope you find some nugget of value in what I said, it wasn’t meant to insult, or sound as if I think I am an authority on historical trash talk. If you feel I have somehow violated your sensibilitie, then please accept my sincere apology.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In the short time I've been here on MT, I've seen a dozen or so guys come on here telling everyone else that they don't know what they're talking about, "so here's the real deal."

I try not to engage it, but please understand: there are plenty of people here who grew up in the ghetto, live in high crime areas, and have also done what they've needed to survive. Plenty of people come here thinking they're the only one. That's not going to stop, but I really wish it would.


I don't know where you're from. But I grew up in the projects myself and having lived in many other impoverished areas, I know first hand that trash talking has always been a fact of life in places where fights occur. And for the same reasons I stated in my previous comments.

And when it comes to real fights, you said that trash talking is a way for someone to convince themselves of the courage they don't really have. And you know what? Sometimes that's true. And you know something else? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

When I was young, I've used my trash talking abilities to get dudes who wanted to fight me (and who I thought would have beaten me) to back off. And if that didn't work (I'd say it was 50/50), it helped me muster that courage to go through with it. It's a concept called "think, do, become" or "acting as if." And it's never a bad thing.

Fake it til you make it?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sometimes there's a difference between "sport" and not, but sometimes there wasn't. The Romans sure didn't have a problem making "sport fighting" the same thing as "real fighting." Historically speaking, still, "trash talking" was completely common during the days when "fighting words" actually meant a duel to the death. Never heard of Hamilton and Burr?



You're certainly free to believe that but the history seems to indicate otherwise.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I just don’t believe in “fighting words”.

 

[lklawson]

Good point. Anyone who's ever taken a leadership course has gone over the "bases of power," and there are between 5 to 9 of them, depending on the model that the particular course follows.

The one being referred to here is called "reverent power," where one is able to assume a leadership role because of their charisma.

I'm personally not very trusting of charismatic people initially, and I tend to watch them very closely in order to decide whether or not they can be trusted. One thing that's common sense is that charisma does not equal competence and, in my experience, charismatic people use their charisma to get others to overlook their lack of competence.

That said, if I don't agree that a title like "grandmaster" should be conferred by those under a particular person's leadership, I hope everyone understands why.

That's the thing about charismatic people. If they're half-way good, you don't realize they're using their charisma.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Not to sound like I'm backpedaling but the word "Grandmaster" doesn't necessarily carry a positive connotation. Case in point: the Austrian painter.

It was just my way of pointing out that just because a lot of people believe something doesn't mean it's true. At one point pretty much all of Europe believe that disease was caused by an imbalance of bodily humors. Feeling sick? It's probably too much phelgm; better go get some of your blood removed.

Just because a lot of people agree that Mr. Sokitumi is a "Grand Master" doesn't necessarily mean he is.

And yes, that impacts my beliefs on what ranks in martial arts (and pretty much everything else) actually means.

Should "rank" be by some sort of consensus? What if everyone is wrong or the majority is misinformed?

Should "rank" be by a certifying body? What if that certifying body is incompetent, corrupt, or unqualified?

Should "rank" be by accomplishment and/or competitive success? What if the pool of competitors ability & skill either improves or declines compared to history such as if the pool has either better or worse nutrition, training methods, or genetics (can you really compare the Jack Dempsey to George Foreman?).

In the end, how much does "rank" actually mean? And if "rank" has very limited meaning, can "Master" and "Grand Master" mean much more?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Urban Trekker]

Fake it til you make it?

That's another way of putting it, but I tend to use that phrase in a different context. For example, BS'ing your way though an interview for a job you know you're not qualified for, and hoping for the best.

But I know it's another phrase for what I was describing before, though.

 

[lklawson]

I never said I had any authority or expertise. Much like you, I do espouse an opinion. You obviously think that trash talk is an essential part of martial arts, and that’s ok.

No. I think that it's a common part and has been since humans first started punching each other in the face. I don't think its use can be seen as any sort of moral judgment tool or give any particular insight into a person's skill or belief in their own capabilities as it seems that you do.

Trash talk is just trash talk and it could mean dozens of different things and be used in many different ways from psyching one's self up to psyching out the opponent to entertaining the spectators to a type of ritual. It's a tool. You just can't assume that a person doing so is somehow morally bankrupt or doubts their own abilities. That's myopic.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I just don’t believe in “fighting words”.

Then it's a good thing that you live in a modern first world country, otherwise a perceived slight could get you in a fight. Set the Wayback Machine 150 years, or travel to certain other parts of the world, and your belief in whether or not fighting words are real won't matter to the guy stabbing you to death or pummeling your face into pulp.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sure. And it's your opinion. Your opinion does not have to comport with known history to still be your opinion. It just means that what you believe may not be historically accurate.


That all sounds scary but it really doesn't give you any more authority on the subject than anyone else. Seeing dead bodies and permanent injuries doesn't actually make you an authority on whether or not trash talking is or is not, well, anything at all.

Fake it til you make it?

I wasn’t telling anybody that they don’t know what they are talking about. I was expressing an opinion about how I feel about trash talk in general. How it just begets more unnecessary violence, and the reality of that. I do know it’s common, I do know it has historical significance, I do know it is used for many reasons mentioned already. I was only relating to the conversation from my experiences. I guess I missed something here, but Sometimes I wonder if people read the comment completely. I said I was talking about being a human. To me, that’s martial arts. Evolving. Trying to be a better human. You in relationship to yourself, you in relationship to the earth. Take it for what it’s worth, an opinion, nothing more than that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No. I think that it's a common part and has been since humans first started punching each other in the face. I don't think its use can be seen as any sort of moral judgment tool or give any particular insight into a person's skill or belief in their own capabilities as it seems that you do.

Trash talk is just trash talk and it could mean dozens of different things and be used in many different ways from psyching one's self up to psyching out the opponent to entertaining the spectators to a type of ritual. It's a tool. You just can't assume that a person doing so is somehow morally bankrupt or doubts their own abilities. That's myopic.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Then it's a good thing that you live in a modern first world country, otherwise a perceived slight could get you in a fight. Set the Wayback Machine 150 years, or travel to certain other parts of the world, and your belief in whether or not fighting words are real won't matter to the guy stabbing you to death or pummeling your face into pulp.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think you misunderstand. I don’t fight over words. I will fight if you attack me, regardless of your reason. You can say anything you want to me, I’ve heard it all. I will not attack someone for saying words. Do you understand what I mean now?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No. I think that it's a common part and has been since humans first started punching each other in the face. I don't think its use can be seen as any sort of moral judgment tool or give any particular insight into a person's skill or belief in their own capabilities as it seems that you do.

Trash talk is just trash talk and it could mean dozens of different things and be used in many different ways from psyching one's self up to psyching out the opponent to entertaining the spectators to a type of ritual. It's a tool. You just can't assume that a person doing so is somehow morally bankrupt or doubts their own abilities. That's myopic.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think that I can see it any way I want. I think that if you have to psych yourself up then you should train harder. I think that if you need a tool to psych me out then you doubt your ability to defeat me with pure skill. I think that if you depend on that rather than your pure skill you lack a certain moral quality. It makes you less. You lower yourself. A pity that you can’t see that. Maybe its your myopia.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Then it's a good thing that you live in a modern first world country, otherwise a perceived slight could get you in a fight. Set the Wayback Machine 150 years, or travel to certain other parts of the world, and your belief in whether or not fighting words are real won't matter to the guy stabbing you to death or pummeling your face into pulp.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

We don’t need to set it back 150 years, I have been stabbed twice, once with a bottle and once with a knife. I’m not making up some bs story about my imaginary fights.

 

[lklawson]

I wasn’t telling anybody that they don’t know what they are talking about. I was expressing an opinion about how I feel about trash talk in general. How it just begets more unnecessary violence, and the reality of that. I do know it’s common, I do know it has historical significance, I do know it is used for many reasons mentioned already. I was only relating to the conversation from my experiences. I guess I missed something here, but Sometimes I wonder if people read the comment completely. I said I was talking about being a human. To me, that’s martial arts. Evolving. Trying to be a better human. You in relationship to yourself, you in relationship to the earth. Take it for what it’s worth, an opinion, nothing more than that.

Well, we are pretty much polar opposites on our personal opinions of what The Arts of Mars are at their foundational core. I get it. I get the "bunnies and light." Heck, I have a shodan in Aikido (among other certs and ranks). But the more I studied the way martial arts are taught and presented throughout the world, both today and in history, the more I was convinced that martial arts are, fundamentally, about fighting, being able to hurt or control other people, and preventing them from doing that to you. I have become convinced that the "self actualization" concept of what martial arts should be is a concept which is only possible in a society safe enough and structured enough to allow it to flourish in such a way.

I'm just not going to agree that you study martial arts "to be a better human" (at least not in the way that I think you mean "better human"). Sure, I agree with the sentiment that "Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it." But the fighting arts aren't about pacifism, they just give you the option to choose it.

But I really do hope it works out for you. I hope you can find enlightenment or self actualization or whatever it is you're looking for. I just have a problem when people make pronouncements that I know are inaccurate.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I think that I can see it any way I want. I think that if you have to psych yourself up then you should train harder.

I didn't say that I need to do it, I said it's a tool that some people can use.

I think that if you need a tool to psych me out then you doubt your ability to defeat me with pure skill.

Why on earth would someone give up a tool that could help them? That's silly. Psychological Warfare and "psyops" are standard fare and I'm amazed that you think they're somehow corrupt.

I think that if you depend on that rather than your pure skill you lack a certain moral quality.

"Moral quality" doesn't win fights and doesn't keep a face from getting beaten in. Good tools, tactics, strategy, and training do that. And sometimes, in some cases, "trash talk" can be a tool to be used.

It makes you less. You lower yourself. A pity that you can’t see that. Maybe its your myopia.

Well, if making use of a tool is "lowering," if winning the fight, if surviving is "myopic" then OK.

You know what you call the morally superior dead guy? Dead.