GrandMaster Steve? Who qualifies as an authentic Grandmaster?

[Steve]

It might work, where a student comes in expecting to make a career of teaching. Of course, there would have to be some reasonable expectation of success in that.

I think that already exists. Take @skribs' situation, for example. But how would the dynamic change if his instructor paid @skribs to learn the material and teach the classes, etc?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Meastro is French.

Italian, I think, but your point remains unchanged. In any case, it does still mean “master”.

 

[Steve]

I think a fitness gym is less personal (at the staff level) than most people’s MA training location becomes after a year or so. Maybe it’s more like changing doctors - the change implies something about the relationship and/or interaction of the doctor (or staff) and patient.

Depends on the situation. Here's another question to ponder. If a martial arts relationship is is more personal than a similar situation with a personal training... should it be? Is that necessarily a good thing? Or is that 'personal' relationship one has with their Master an easy way for the school owner to exert inappropriate emotional pressure on a person who simply wants to leave the school for their own reasons?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think that already exists. Take @skribs' situation, for example. But how would the dynamic change if his instructor paid @skribs to learn the material and teach the classes, etc?

Another thought occurred to me. The instructor would need to be able to leverage his student from the beginning. An apprentice plumber is actually doing work (and often the dirtiest work). What work would a new MA student do yo earn pay?

 

[Steve]

Italian, I think, but your point remains unchanged. In any case, it does still mean “master”.

It was a JOKE!

 

[Steve]

Another thought occurred to me. The instructor would need to be able to leverage his student from the beginning. An apprentice plumber is actually doing work (and often the dirtiest work). What work would a new MA student do yo earn pay?

Well, I mean... all the work around the school. Cleaning the mats... going on various errands.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on the situation. Here's another question to ponder. If a martial arts relationship is is more personal than a similar situation with a personal training... should it be? Is that necessarily a good thing? Or is that 'personal' relationship one has with their Master an easy way for the school owner to exert inappropriate emotional pressure on a person who simply wants to leave the school for their own reasons?

I think it's inherently more personal in most cases, because there's a primary instructor for the student. Think of how much more personal the relationship is with a personal trainer someone works with for a year or more, as opposed to their relationship with the general staff.

I agree with what I think you're getting at here - some of the relationships (or at least the relationship dynamics) in MA are...odd.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It was a JOKE!

In that case, r/whoosh.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I mean... all the work around the school. Cleaning the mats... going on various errands.

Yep, if the student is doing all that, that could be about the same as an apprentice in a trade. Of course, at some point, helping run classes could come into play.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Do

You know, thinking about this, I wonder if it's viable... if I hire you as an apprentice, take over responsibility for your training and pay you a fair wage for your time, I could then fire you. I could also teach you the business elements and instructorship elements of the style. In other words, as you learn the style, you would be required to take on more responsibility. I would be getting value from you, and the relationship wouldn't be me providing a service to you; rather, it would be you are my employee. I don't know if it would work or not, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yep, if the student is doing all that, that could be about the same as an apprentice in a trade. Of course, at some point, helping run classes could come into play.

Damnit! I was an apprentice and didn’t even know it!?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Do

You know, thinking about this, I wonder if it's viable... if I hire you as an apprentice, take over responsibility for your training and pay you a fair wage for your time, I could then fire you. I could also teach you the business elements and instructorship elements of the style. In other words, as you learn the style, you would be required to take on more responsibility. I would be getting value from you, and the relationship wouldn't be me providing a service to you; rather, it would be you are my employee. I don't know if it would work or not, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Never even got a box to sleep in at the foot of master’s bed…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Worst part is, he was Italian.

 

[MadMartigan]

So for those who see a difference between the honorifics for doctor or master; what do you think about the tradition in BJJ of referring to instructors as Professor?
Are all 3 perhaps just a different way of saying a similar thing?
If I run into my doctor on the street, I don't say hey 'Phil'. He'd be Doctor 'Smith'. Seems like the Professor honorific is used the same way... so what is so different about the word master? (besides, as Steve said, the over prevalence of abusive relationships that have occurred).
If all 3 are meant to convey an increadibly high level of skill/education in a given field of expertise, are they not more similar than different?
Is the difference mostly just the baggage that comes with the English usage of the word master?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So for those who see a difference between the honorifics for doctor or master; what do you think about the tradition in BJJ of referring to instructors as Professor?
Are all 3 perhaps just a different way of saying a similar thing?
If I run into my doctor on the street, I don't say hey 'Phil'. He'd be Doctor 'Smith'. Seems like the Professor honorific is used the same way... so what is so different about the word master? (besides, as Steve said, the over prevalence of abusive relationships that have occurred).
If all 3 are meant to convey an increadibly high level of skill/education in a given field of expertise, are they not more similar than different?
Is the difference mostly just the baggage that comes with the English usage of the word master?

In the case of BJJ, "professor" comes from the Portuguese spoken in Brazil, where it just means "teacher". Personally I prefer not to use the title, because it has a different set of implications in English. I think I've had 3 people call me "professor" - two were Brazilian and the 3rd had spent a lot of time training with a Brazilian. I'm much more comfortable with just "coach", which is the general usage in our gym.

 

[Steve]

So for those who see a difference between the honorifics for doctor or master; what do you think about the tradition in BJJ of referring to instructors as Professor?
Are all 3 perhaps just a different way of saying a similar thing?
If I run into my doctor on the street, I don't say hey 'Phil'. He'd be Doctor 'Smith'. Seems like the Professor honorific is used the same way... so what is so different about the word master? (besides, as Steve said, the over prevalence of abusive relationships that have occurred).
If all 3 are meant to convey an increadibly high level of skill/education in a given field of expertise, are they not more similar than different?
Is the difference mostly just the baggage that comes with the English usage of the word master?

Professor is like sensei , which is to say it’s teacher in the home language of the art. It’s a little misleading because it isn’t intended to be professor in the sense we use it in English.

 

[Oily Dragon]

To reach that upper level,
your mind, body and soul must be one.

It's a sacrifice, it takes hard work,
It's a way of life.

When you got the glow, you feel the one
When you got the glow, Your body's gold

So don't let go, of the power of elevation.

 

[dvcochran]

That's just because you have a hangup about what "master" means. At some point my may have to stop carrying around some of that social baggage.

I would add that I do not feel @Urban Trekker or @Steve have trained under someone truly worthy of the title.
And no, I am not putting the title in some mystical realm.

But the local guy down at the gym teaching MMA/BJJ (or 'insert style'), an assistant instructor or even Most new school owner/instructors, or anyone with just a few years experience (no matter how much training time they crammed in) are qualified to hold the title.

The key word that comes to mind for me is holistic: "characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole." The 'whole', while subjective to many is completely missed by most.

Yes, waxing philosophic but accurate overall.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I would add that I do not feel @Urban Trekker or @Steve have trained under someone truly worthy of the title.
And no, I am not putting the title in some mystical realm.

Without doxing myself, anyone who doesn't mind using the term would beg to differ.

The fact of the matter is, I simply refuse to use the term. And it goes both ways: if anyone tried to call me "master," I'd nip that in the bud before they could even finish the word.

But the local guy down at the gym teaching MMA/BJJ (or 'insert style'), an assistant instructor or even Most new school owner/instructors, or anyone with just a few years experience (no matter how much training time they crammed in) are qualified to hold the title.

The key word that comes to mind for me is holistic: "characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole." The 'whole', while subjective to many is completely missed by most.

Yes, waxing philosophic but accurate overall.

Speaking of key words, if you look up "master" in the dictionary, at least half the definitions reference ownership or domination over a person or animal.