GrandMaster Steve? Who qualifies as an authentic Grandmaster?

[Wing Woo Gar]

I loved Muhammad Ali. I don’t love braggarts in general, but will make a rare exception if/when people prove it. That is, however, exceedingly rare. Most times it’s just hot air and paper tigers. There is always somebody better, maybe you won’t meet him for a while, but he is out there.

 

[lklawson]

There is always somebody better

No argument there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Urban Trekker]

I loved Muhammad Ali. I don’t love braggarts in general, but will make a rare exception if/when people prove it. That is, however, exceedingly rare. Most times it’s just hot air and paper tigers. There is always somebody better, maybe you won’t meet him for a while, but he is out there.

I think everyone's problem is with Floyd Mayweather. The criticism will be that he scores points and runs until he gets the decision. And, of course, his fans come back with the YDKSAB argument. Muhammed Ali actually knocked his opponents out, which is why he's more forgivable.

 

[Steve]

Could you imagine if the culinary world was full of self-reported "masters"? Or worse, the electrician world. Hiring a wiring guy would be like playing with TNT.

It's as if they figured out this problem long ago...with cookoffs and standards for excellence.

Martial artists who consider themselves above such things, I think we both know how little they contribute.

Agree completely. I've written probably thousands of words on this topic on this forum. And yet just the other day I saw someone who has in the past boasted about never having even been in a schoolyard fight talk about what it's like to apply techniques in the chaos of a "real" fight.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think everyone's problem is with Floyd Mayweather. The criticism will be that he scores points and runs until he gets the decision. And, of course, his fans come back with the YDKSAB argument. Muhammed Ali actually knocked his opponents out, which is why he's more forgivable.

Trash talking seems to be ubiquitous in ufc. They have a whole tv show around it. Conor mcgregor being a good example. I personally don’t care for it. I think it defames and debases people in general, and constitutes the prostitution of the arts. Anyone can be a whore, that is a skill set, but it isn’t something to aspire to In my opinion.

 

[WaterGal]

I am not sure that is as universal as is implied here. There are countless examples, in the English language, in the U.S., of people being referred to as "master," to represent an attained skill level or rank. This ranges from the common and utilitarian, such as "Master Sergeant," "Master Chief," "Master of Ceremonies," "Master at Arms," "Master Carpenter," and "Range Master," to the fictional, silly, and whimsical, such as when the Marvel MCU movies character Ancient One refers to various sorcerers as "Master [name]."

It's dead common and shows up in the English language all the time, even in martial arts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I do think it's worth noting that the real-world examples that you gave were "Master [Some Job Title]" or "Master of [Some Duty]". I think there is a subtle but real distinction between "That's Bill, the master instructor" and "That's Master Bill".

 

[dvcochran]

Case in point, Bruce Leroy.

He had the training, the skills, and by the end of the movie, he had the Glow.

But when Sho Nuff asks him "Who's the master" the final time, Bruce doesn't say "I am" because he just thinks that. He says it because his own sifu had told him that at the beginning. It took the whole movie for him to realize it.

When your teacher tells you you're a master, go with it. "When the student is ready, the master will appear".

View attachment 27488

Ironically we were talking about Bruce Leroy during trivia last night!!!

 

[dvcochran]

I do think it's worth noting that the real-world examples that you gave were "Master [Some Job Title]" or "Master of [Some Duty]". I think there is a subtle but real distinction between "That's Bill, the master instructor" and "That's Master Bill".

Interesting; can you expand on this thought?

 

[dvcochran]

Could you imagine if the culinary world was full of self-reported "masters"? Or worse, the electrician world. Hiring a wiring guy would be like playing with TNT.

It's as if they figured out this problem long ago...with cookoffs and standards for excellence.

Martial artists who consider themselves above such things, I think we both know how little they contribute.

Yep. And I will say it again; The MA's need some sort of certifying medium similar to skilled trade people, professional teachers, engineers, etc...
Being really good in competition carries a lot of weight but that is only one area for an ever increasing set of metrics.

 

[BrendanF]

The MA's need some sort of certifying medium similar to skilled trade people, professional teachers, engineers, etc...
Being really good in competition carries a lot of weight but that is only one area for an ever increasing set of metrics.

I don't agree. I think the cultural diversity and breadth of traditions present necessarily means that any attempt to regulate the industry would be farcical. How would a regulatory body comprised of - presumably - karate, taekwondo, BJJ etc people.. regulate instruction in Mongolian wrestling or savate?

You going to have someone capable of assessing the merits of instructors of every martial art on the planet?

 

[WaterGal]

Interesting; can you expand on this thought?

If someone is a "Master Electrician", "master" is modifying "electrician". It's saying that they have attained some mastery at the work of being an electrician. It's a job title, and specific to that realm. I think that just saying "Master Bill" can imply something broader.

 

[MadMartigan]

If someone is a "Master Electrician", "master" is modifying "electrician". It's saying that they have attained some mastery at the work of being an electrician. It's a job title, and specific to that realm. I think that just saying "Master Bill" can imply something broader.

I think I see what you're getting at... and that may be the part rankles so many.

Using the term master to describe the job isn't too offensive to most (ie: master instructor similar to master electrician etc). This simply implies expertise within that skillset.

The problem lays with those that use the word to invoke fealty from their followers. There are far to many self proclaimed "masters" (and students) who act as though the term confers mastery of all aspects of life / self-defense / spirituality / finances, you name it.

Unfortunately, the term is more often used for the latter purposes by those wishing to be worshiped as a hero of some kind.

While dvcochran's idea would be nice; with members of the same art unable to agree on how things should be done... how could all the different forms out there possibly do better?

 

[Buka]

I loved Muhammad Ali. I don’t love braggarts in general, but will make a rare exception if/when people prove it. That is, however, exceedingly rare. Most times it’s just hot air and paper tigers. There is always somebody better, maybe you won’t meet him for a while, but he is out there.

I loved him, too. The whole bragging thing was an act, and a damn fine one it was. After winning in the Olympics he was back home and went to a professional wrestling show. Gorgeous George was in the featured bout. George used to come out in a long robe, his hair all permed, sometimes a crown. The boos would be loud, stuff would be thrown at the ring.

If I remember correctly, I believe Ali (Clay at the time) was there with a relative, maybe his dad, maybe an uncle. That relative turned to young Cassius and said, "Can you imagine having all these people booing you?"

Clay replied "Can you imagine all these people paying good money to come out and boo you?"

And a star was born.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think everyone's problem is with Floyd Mayweather. The criticism will be that he scores points and runs until he gets the decision. And, of course, his fans come back with the YDKSAB argument. Muhammed Ali actually knocked his opponents out, which is why he's more forgivable.

I loved him, too. The whole bragging thing was an act, and a damn fine one it was. After winning in the Olympics he was back home and went to a professional wrestling show. Gorgeous George was in the featured bout. George used to come out in a long robe, his hair all permed, sometimes a crown. The boos would be loud, stuff would be thrown at the ring.

If I remember correctly, I believe Ali (Clay at the time) was there with a relative, maybe his dad, maybe an uncle. That relative turned to young Cassius and said, "Can you imagine having all these people booing you?"

Clay replied "Can you imagine all these people paying good money to come out and boo you?"

And a star was born.

All war is deception. -Sun Tzu

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't agree. I think the cultural diversity and breadth of traditions present necessarily means that any attempt to regulate the industry would be farcical. How would a regulatory body comprised of - presumably - karate, taekwondo, BJJ etc people.. regulate instruction in Mongolian wrestling or savate?

You going to have someone capable of assessing the merits of instructors of every martial art on the planet?

Sure. We already do. It's the people senior to them within their organization.

 

[BrendanF]

Sure. We already do. It's the people senior to them within their organization.

Of course. But there is no centralised body regulating those individuals. A cursory look at martial arts organisations in China and Japan can demonstrate the difficulties involved, when the source arts are nearly innumerable and independent.

My point being it maybe possible to organise and regulate commercially practised arts, even slightly more obscure ones such as Mongolian wrestling or savate, but it's damn near impossible to organise or impose regulations on individuals privately practising or teaching an obscure family art. In those cases, the people are the organisation - there isn't anyone senior to them.

I'm reminded of one of the more well known American koryu teachers; his school - his teacher - did not join either of the two major 'Nihon Kobudo' organisations in Japan, effectively saying "why would I want to join an organisation filled with my former enemies?".

 

[Oily Dragon]

Agree completely. I've written probably thousands of words on this topic on this forum. And yet just the other day I saw someone who has in the past boasted about never having even been in a schoolyard fight talk about what it's like to apply techniques in the chaos of a "real" fight.

A real fight ends one of three ways.

You walk away wondering how you won.

Or you wake up later, and told you lost.

Or you die.

 

[dvcochran]

If someone is a "Master Electrician", "master" is modifying "electrician". It's saying that they have attained some mastery at the work of being an electrician. It's a job title, and specific to that realm. I think that just saying "Master Bill" can imply something broader.

In the context of skilled trades, being qualified as a Master is much broader than . 'modifying' something. The time investment, education required, and work history is what enables the title.
To me, that is very parallel to being called a Master in martial arts.

I am still trying to understand the "Master Bill" reference. Are you saying Bill is a hack?
Or that Bill, the master instructor is more akin to the supervisor title and Master Bill more honorific (Sa Bum Nim vs. Kwan Jang Nim)?

 

[dvcochran]

I don't agree. I think the cultural diversity and breadth of traditions present necessarily means that any attempt to regulate the industry would be farcical. How would a regulatory body comprised of - presumably - karate, taekwondo, BJJ etc people.. regulate instruction in Mongolian wrestling or savate?

You going to have someone capable of assessing the merits of instructors of every martial art on the planet?

It could not be 'for the whole planet'. More like national, federal, and state regulatory agencies.

 

[lklawson]

Trash talking seems to be ubiquitous in ufc. They have a whole tv show around it. Conor mcgregor being a good example. I personally don’t care for it. I think it defames and debases people in general, and constitutes the prostitution of the arts. Anyone can be a whore, that is a skill set, but it isn’t something to aspire to In my opinion.

Trash talking has always been part of fighting. It's standard fare in boxing and wrestling and can be documented back to the earliest periods of mankind. There are texts of Egyptians Pharos trash talking their enemies and of the Nubians trash talking the Egyptians. My favorite is when the English broadsword fencers were trash talking the new continental rapier systems as being frenchy and sissy.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk