Good teaching clip

[Juany118]

Sounds like Atari Boxing.

If he is standing square shoulder to you his right hand cannot follow along those paths to strike unless he moved left prior to punching. If not it only leaves his left hand that is able to follow along those paths. In either scenario see previous post.

This is the problem with the majority of Wing Chun practitioners, pontificating hypothetical situations based on theoretical puzzles lacking in detail that don't really have a realistic solution but look good on paper.

Simplest solution, cover your center, expect to get hit and condition for it, don't chase hands, be aggressive, continue to press forward and hit.

There is no perfect solution for any of these hypothetical "what if" situations. There are variables not accounted for and to try and factor them in, leads to more "what if" crap.

Over analyzing and trying to use math and geometry to support offensive and defensive strategy is foolish.

Congratulations on replacing Hendrik.

I think most people don't get a simple fact of real fights. You can't cover everything at all times since blows can come from straight, left, right, up and yes down (hammer punch anyone). As such you protect your center, particularly the head, and be willing to take a hit elsewhere.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

Counterpunch.

How, I have all but spelled out for you. Still hoping you can come to it yourself since it's basic first form thinking.

Without this basic thinking hand chasing is inevitable. No Liu sin dai da. No VT. What KPM and his various friends are advocating is either karate blocking away from the head which is suicidal, or advocating taking punches to make contact, which is very low percentage. All lacking what is one of the most basic and constantly reinforced lessons of SNT. The mind boggles.

 

[Nobody Important]

Depends on where his punch is initiating from, what type of guard and action. But that is beside the point. We're looking at those striking paths and your guard/response options to them. Left or right punch is irrelevant if they knock you out.

Impossible for the opponents left to take the trajectory of those angles with his left hand unless he moves right. In which case if you throw a right punch he aligns himself to it.

None of those striking paths cross your center line. Your right wu-sau on center isn't obstructing those paths and can't without crossing center to chase the arm. Are you not seeing this clearly illustrated?

If point of contact is at the apex, the Wu Sau is obstructing the path. If anywhere before, the power of the incoming strike can be significantly reduced by moving in. The closer the striking arm is to their body the more leverage it has and less concussive force.

Moving in is only going to run yourself into the punch, and there may not be time or room to move back before the punch lands.

Again the closer the arm is to the body the more leverage it possesses and less concussive force. Always keep your hands up and in center of body (in this case was was moved by opponent to clear a striking path, this still leaves one that is in position to obstruct if not already), Moving into the path will stifle their movement. Keep your chin tucked and raise your shoulder to protect side of head (this is remedial), you'll be alright. To try and use your hands to stop that punch is chasing hands.

Nor do I, but it's a matter of percentages. I'd rather not go 50/50 or even less if I can help it.

Wu-sau occupying center is very low percentage. Take the hit as a tactic and it might be the last one you take.[/QUOTE]
Anything below his bridge (which moved your left Man Sau) is low percentage. This leave only the right Wu Sau which is already center. Any action with your hands to deal with the incoming blow is chasing hands. Best to shrug the shoulder to cover the left side of head which put your right Wu Sau to the left of your head, allowing to absorb the impact at minimal risk, especially if moving forward into the path of the strike, neutralizing its concussive force. Its a quick and simple cover, one use by boxers.

You are going to get hit in a fight, best to learn how to absorb them instead of focusing on low percentage and unrealistic hand chasing methods.

 

[Nobody Important]

It is inefficient because it is chasing the hand rather than counterpunching.



I'm arguing against wu-sau occupying center and then having to chase the arm.



Chasing the arm is inefficient compared to counterpunching.



Entirely possible, especially given the speed at which punches can be thrown compared to your reaction time and body movement.



Who says his other hand must be occupied? Your man-sau could have been suddenly knocked aside and his second hand is coming fast behind the first punch.

You cross center chasing laterally after the first punch and his next punch cuts through your center.

It's just too low percentage and makes recovery very difficult, and if chasing the arm is your basic response, that's a problem.

Your right and I'm not suggesting any of this, see my response to Lobo.

 

[Lobo66]

There is no time for your Hok Bong or other actions with the left hand. Your opponent has already pulled it down and is a beat ahead of you.

You have three options : 1) cross block with pak (not at all optimal but could save you from being KO'ed)
2) counter punch with the right hand. Now, if your right hand is coming from the right or center then the best you can hope for is a simultaneous knock out. However, if your right hand is coming from the left toward the opponent's center, AND THE OPPONENT HAS THROWN A STRAIGHT PUNCH, you can counter punch and defend together. If it's a hooking punch, however, you'll still get clocked.
3) hope you have the chin to take the shot

 

[guy b]

A hooking parry onto the Man Sau followed immediately with a punch from the same hand as Lobo just described would be very difficult for anyone to deal with

Lobo's clips show opposite hands working together, one moving the arm, other punching through the gap. Can be done same side or opposite side. The point is that you are getting punched through the gap where your lead hand was, and your only option is then to chase the hand with a pak or punch at the same time with the other hand. Both terrible odds of suucess and very limited thinking.

But you've already said that counterpunching wasn't an option!

It isn't an option with hands held as described by Geezer

Ok. Then if his other hand is no longer occupied with trapping yours downward, then your trapped hand is no longer occupied either and is free to respond......with....dare I say it.....a Hok Bong? Or some other rising motion to cover the line?

Have another look at Lobo's clip, then imagine the % chance of pulling that off. Plus still hand chasing.

So given the scenario where a WSLVT guy has had someone close on him and has knocked his lead hand aside and pounding a combination of hard punches (in other words the scenario you are describing).....what are you going to do?

It's been described to you about 50 times already. You can't be this slow?

 

[LFJ]

Impossible for the opponents left to take the trajectory of those angles with his left hand unless he moves right.

Not true.

If point of contact is at the apex, the Wu Sau is obstructing the path.

Not true. Look at the diagram I drew to clearly illustrate it for you.

If anywhere before, the power of the incoming strike can be significantly reduced by moving in. The closer the striking arm is to their body the more leverage it has and less concussive force.

Okay, walk into the punch by all means.

Any action with your hands to deal with the incoming blow is chasing hands.

What have I been saying?

 

[Nobody Important]

Here is an example from MT. The cross trap of the lead guard hand (when both are orthodox) :

The left hand is trapped and pulled down in a hooking action (much like WC's huen sau) leaving the right side open for attack. The opponent is left with the less than desirable option of cross blocking with his right hand (much like the WC pak sau action).

In this situation, the hooking and pulling down of the left hand leaves the opponent momentarily unbalanced. Furthermore, the follow-up punch is often coming in an arc, an overhand right for example. It doesn't matter where your wu sau hand is, you just simply don't have many options.

This is the exact scenario I am envisioning. IMO the best defense is a left shoulder shrug (which covers the left side of your head) your right hand will automatically occupy the dead space of the upper left quadrant. If you move in, its possible to slip his punch. If you do get hit it is often a glancing blow or its power can be significantly reduced by the top of your head/shoulder and Wu Sau taking the brunt of the impact.

When I boxed I was taught to move in, slip, bob & weave. To try and use anything other than cover and body movement is arm chasing (unrealistic & low percentage) and leaves you wide open.

 

[guy b]

This leave only the right Wu Sau which is already center. Any action with your hands to deal with the incoming blow is chasing hands.

Exactly!

Best to shrug the shoulder to cover the left side of head which put your right Wu Sau to the left of your head,

Lol, no. Think about what you can change in the above scenario before you resort to getting punched in the head as your first line response

 

[LFJ]

I think most people don't get a simple fact of real fights. You can't cover everything at all times since blows can come from straight, left, right, up and yes down (hammer punch anyone). As such you protect your center, particularly the head, and be willing to take a hit elsewhere.

All I was talking about was a simple straight punch coming via a line through the unguarded area left of center... and how a right wu-sau occupying center can't directly counterpunch without double knockout as the best-case result... and how chasing the arm across center is the only other option and creates bigger problems for yourself. All from obsession with occupying center.

 

[guy b]

When I boxed I was taught to move in, slip, bob & weave. To try and use anything other than cover and body movement is arm chasing (unrealistic & low percentage) and leaves you wide open.

So you are saying that as soon as your hand gets slapped down your wing chun is staring into the abyss of failure and it is time to break out the boxing skills from back in the day? Why not just quit with the wing chun, seems a waste of your time?

 

[Danny T]

How about using footwork, body position, and weight distribution to move the line?

 

[Nobody Important]

Not true.



Not true. Look at the diagram I drew to clearly illustrate it for you.



Okay, walk into the punch by all means.



What have I been saying?

How is it not true? The only possible way for a left hand to follow that trajectory to the target is by moving first to the right for alignment. It isn't rocket science. The left cannot come from the same origin point as the right unless it is moved to that same starting point. And yes, don't be afraid of getting hit, its inevitable. Learn to minimize the damage and counter.

 

[LFJ]

How is it not true? The only possible way for a left hand to follow that trajectory to the target is by moving first to the right for alignment. It isn't rocket science. The left cannot come from the same origin point as the right unless it is moved to that same starting point. And yes, don't be afraid of getting hit, its inevitable. Learn to minimize the damage and counter.

 

[Nobody Important]

So you are saying that as soon as your hand gets slapped down your wing chun is staring into the abyss of failure and it is time to break out the boxing skills from back in the day? Why not just quit with the wing chun, seems a waste of your time?

What I described is in my Wing Chun. Please by all means enlighten us as to how to correctly neutralize this attack. I'm willing to bet we'll get another 20 pages of avoidance and sarcasm instead of your answer.

 

[Nobody Important]

Exactly!



Lol, no. Think about what you can change in the above scenario before you resort to getting punched in the head as your first line response

If you think you have time for anything other than a natural reaction to cover your crazy. Cover and counter, you see it in every boxing match for a reason.

 

[LFJ]

If you think you have time for anything other than a natural reaction to cover your crazy. Cover and counter, you see it in every boxing match.

This whole discussion is about the ineffectiveness of the WT-like guard occupying center.

 

[LFJ]

All I was talking about was a simple straight punch coming via a line through the unguarded area left of center...

And I'll add, the sad thing is that linear attacks should be easy for a WC/WT guy to handle. You train with it all the time. The hooks and loops and other style punches are where we usually see WC guys struggle.

Not so sure why everyone is already resorting to covering up and taking punches when dealing with what could be just a simple straight punch.

WC/WT can't even defend against WC?

 

[guy b]

And I'll add, the sad thing is that linear attacks should be easy for a WC/WT guy to handle. You train with it all the time. The hooks and loops and other style punches are where we usually see WC guys struggle.

Not so sure why everyone is already resorting to covering up and taking punches when dealing with what could be just a simple straight punch.

WC/WT can't even defend against WC?

Apparently not. A bit shocking really. Luckily Nobody Important's "wing chun" also contains boxing so should all be ok when the fists start to fly. I guess that's what happens when you fill those gaps.

 

[guy b]

If you think you have time for anything other than a natural reaction to cover your crazy. Cover and counter, you see it in every boxing match for a reason.

VT is all about the natural thoughtless reaction of punch punch punch. Not cover, cringe, fall on the ground.