Good teaching clip

[wtxs]

Probably time for someone to make a new trolling ID

What should we name it ... guy b. or LFJ?

 

[guy b]

How about abcd or Manuel?

 

[geezer]

You are wedging with your man-sau though, aren't you? Not your wu-sau. What does your wu-sau have to do with it?

In the VT I train, when man sau is removed, wu-sau becomes man-sau, and man sau becomes a punch. Everything flows forward. As for wedging, both man-sau and wu-sau are part of the wedge. Imagine an overhead vie looking down on man-wu-sau. The hands and arms make a wedge pattern. Add forward intent and you have the idea.

One more thing. Wu doesn't wait. Some of the EWTO guys might teach that. But my lineage skipped Kernspecht. I agree with Fernandez. If you play the passive game, you are screwed.

Hope that helps.

 

[ShortBridge]

You guys...

 

[Juany118]

In the VT I train, when man sau is removed, wu-sau becomes man-sau, and man sau becomes a punch. Everything flows forward. As for wedging, both man-sau and wu-sau are part of the wedge. Imagine an overhead vie looking down on man-wu-sau. The hands and arms make a wedge pattern. Add forward intent and you have the idea.

One more thing. Wu doesn't wait. Some of the EWTO guys might teach that. But my lineage skipped Kernspecht. I agree with Fernandez. If you play the passive game, you are screwed.

Hope that helps.

I think most VT agree on the "flowing forward" bit, even if some may put a higher premium on others of flowing at angles to get to a flank/blind side.

We will do what you explain but we will also sometimes do something different. Depending on the circumstance wu sau may become bil sau as the man sau becomes wu. The idea being that the bil sau still wedges, can become a palm strike (our preferred hand strike against hard targets) as easily or, and here is the main reason, a lap sau more easily.

My Sifu had an encounter on the job with a rather LARGE suspect and he simply couldn't "punch" his way out of it. He still came out on top but by using "top control" techniques and attacking the legs. It's in a situation like this that being able to more rapidly lap sau can be useful.

 

[LFJ]

As for wedging, both man-sau and wu-sau are part of the wedge. Imagine an overhead vie looking down on man-wu-sau. The hands and arms make a wedge pattern. Add forward intent and you have the idea.

Right. So, you are forming an equilateral triangle, with your shoulders as the base and your arms as the two sides. As you go forward, your intention is to wedge things out along the outsides of either arm.

Your wu-sau is held on the center line, essentially creating two right triangles from the center, as in the image below.

Your left man-sau arm covers the space to the left of the center, and your right wu-sau arm covers space to the right of the center, using the wedging principle.

Now, if your left man-sau is taken momentarily out of action, being pulled down or suddenly knocked aside, you no longer have a left side of the triangle to cover that space. The area you are able to cover has just been reduced by a full half.

If simultaneously a punch is coming into you from an angle through the space left of the center line, and you don't have time or room to move your body, your wu-sau cannot attack straight away. It would be too late. You'd be hit, or at best it would be a double knockout.

So your wu-sau is left as the last line of defense.

Now, to defend the attack coming via a line through your unguarded left area using the wedging principle, your wu-sau must cross the center to get to the outside of that attack and come back into center to wedge it out.

But of course there will be no time for that.

So, the only option then will be for your wu-sau to use the palm side of the hand to cross the center, chasing after the incoming strike to block it as a last resort.

In any case, the response would be indirect and inefficient, as you would be unable to attack straight away.

This is the problem with thinking you have to occupy center in order to control it.

You are actually reducing the area you can cover by half, and creating a situation for yourself where you have to cross center and block, likely leading to more flinching and flailing attempts to block further strikes while getting hit multiple times.

 

[geezer]

Right. So, you are forming an equilateral triangle, with your shoulders as the base and your arms as the two sides. As you go forward, your intention is to wedge things out along the outsides of either arm.

Your wu-sau is held on the center line, essentially creating two right triangles from the center, as in the image below.

Your left man-sau arm covers the space to the left of the center, and your right wu-sau arm covers space to the right of the center, using the wedging principle.

Now, if your left man-sau is taken momentarily out of action, being pulled down or suddenly knocked aside, you no longer have a left side of the triangle to cover that space. The area you are able to cover has just been reduced by a full half.

If simultaneously a punch is coming into you from an angle through the space left of the center line, and you don't have time or room to move your body, your wu-sau cannot attack straight away. It would be too late. You'd be hit, or at best it would be a double knockout....

Thank you for posting the helpful geometric diagram above showing the isosceles triangle with the base line representing the transverse line from shoulder to shoulder and the apex being defined by the fingertips of your man-sau. This was exactly what I had in mind. As you point out the centerline splits the triangle into two right triangles, and in the VT I practice, we place our wu sau on this centerline, with the leading edge about half way toward the apex and the wrist trailing a bit behind ...say about a third of the way along the line.

Now imagine a line from that point connecting to the right end on the baseline creating a compressed triangle on the right side. That line denotes the position of the right forearm creating a smaller secondary triangle of protection on the right. And yes, it is too small or tight an angle to offer much protection unless you factor in forward pressure. Remember, I said that wu-sau never waits. It drives forward, creating a secondary wedge. When you encounter an obstacle (incoming punch, etc.) to the indoor gate, on the palm side, the wu becomes a centerline pak-sau. When the opposing force is taken on the back side of the hand, or outside gate, your response will be a wedging punch through the center, a tan to the outside, or a bong-sau across to the inside -- depending on the direction of the force received.

BTW, holding wu on center works quite well for many VT/WC practitioners, so I think you overstate the case describing the centerline wu as "likely leading to more flinching and flailing attempts to block further strikes while getting hit multiple times." Holding the wu a bit to the side may create a more predictable pak response, since in that case most punches will enter on the palm side. This may up your percentages -- certainly WSL felt it worked for him. But either way, some punches will still come to the back of your wu, and you still have to be able to handle those.

 

[Juany118]

. But either way, some punches will still come to the back of your wu, and you still have to be able to handle those.

And this is where, in my Lineage, we will move to a bil sau defense. Again still moving forward and still creating a wedge.

The more detail I see the less difference I see (on the striking end.)

 

[LFJ]

When you encounter an obstacle (incoming punch, etc.) to the indoor gate, on the palm side, the wu becomes a centerline pak-sau. When the opposing force is taken on the back side of the hand, or outside gate, your response will be a wedging punch through the center, a tan to the outside, or a bong-sau across to the inside -- depending on the direction of the force received.

I understand that. But this doesn't address the issue of the unguarded area of the left side right-triangle if your left man-sau is momentarily taken out of action. Your only feasible response to avoid being hit, supposing there is no time or room to move yourself out of the way, is to reactively cross the center line with your wu-sau to go after and block the incoming strike. It's defensive arm-chasing as a last resort, because you can't just counterpunch.

Holding the wu a bit to the side may create a more predictable pak response, since in that case most punches will enter on the palm side. This may up your percentages -- certainly WSL felt it worked for him. But either way, some punches will still come to the back of your wu, and you still have to be able to handle those.

I would not hold a right wu-sau even further to the right of center. Now, instead of having reduced area you can cover by a full half by occupying center, this would reduce it even further. The response would still have to be the same as above, but running a longer distance to get across the center line and block the strike incoming via a line through the unguarded left area, originally defended by the man-sau.

In either case, you still have to worry about performing the correct defensive paak, taan, bong, or biu options, rather than counterpunching as the basic idea.

 

[geezer]

@LFJ re post 129 above. I confess I have a hard time visualizing what you mean, especially considering the vagueness of what is implied by saying that
"the left man-sau is momentarily taken out of action". This could describe so many different scenarios. Has the opponent's punch slipped over or under it, or wedged past it to the inside or outside gate? Has it been lap sau-ed and yanked down or aside?

Different situations demand different responses, including remedial actions with the man-sau as well as the wu sau, as well as other possible actions with stepping, turning, etc. If you could describe a specific, common situation ...or even better post a video-clip, It would be easier to understand your point. As it is, I will accept you at your word that the slightly off-center wu-sau has served you well. I just wish I could more clearly understand your rationale. Maybe some of the others here can clarify?

What am I missing here???

 

[Juany118]

@LFJ re post 129 above. I confess I have a hard time visualizing what you mean, especially considering the vagueness of what is implied by saying that
"the left man-sau is momentarily taken out of action". This could describe so many different scenarios. Has the opponent's punch slipped over or under it, or wedged past it to the inside or outside gate? Has it been lap sau-ed and yanked down or aside?

Different situations demand different responses, including remedial actions with the man-sau as well as the wu sau. as well as other possible actions with stepping, turning, etc. If you could describe a specific, common situation, ...or even better post a video-clip, It would be easier to understand your point. As it is, I will accept you at your word that the slightly off-center wu-sau has served you well. I just wish I could more clearly understand your rationale. Maybe some of the others here can clarify?

What am I missing here???

LFG or Guy vague so they can assume superiority without producing evidence?

 

[geezer]

LFG or Guy vague so they can assume superiority without producing evidence?

Nah, I don't think so this time. I'm open to input an making the guard-hand function more effectively. I'd give it a try anyway. That's how you learn right? I'd just like to get a clearer picture of what he's saying.

 

[geezer]

On the other hand maybe LFJ isn't really interested in sharing, and is just trying to promote the superiority of the VT he trains. I don't care. Let's see what he says.

 

[wckf92]

Not speaking for LFJ...but, maybe he means if something is on the CL already (wu), and incoming attack is also on CL, your wu must first move to one side in order to be used(?)
Dunno...just spitballing

 

[Juany118]

On the other hand maybe LFJ isn't really interested in sharing, and is just trying to promote the superiority of the VT he trains. I don't care. Let's see what he says.

It is kinda hard to tell when we see the shenanigans on the SLT thread. /Shrug

 

[guy b]

What am I missing here???

Think built in automatic defence. Punch punch punch. Not react.

 

[KPM]

---I haven't followed this whole thread, but this part doesn't make sense to me:

Now, if your left man-sau is taken momentarily out of action, being pulled down or suddenly knocked aside, you no longer have a left side of the triangle to cover that space. The area you are able to cover has just been reduced by a full half.

If simultaneously a punch is coming into you from an angle through the space left of the center line, and you don't have time or room to move your body, your wu-sau cannot attack straight away. It would be too late. You'd be hit, or at best it would be a double knockout.

-----I'm following this so far. It makes sense.


Now, to defend the attack coming via a line through your unguarded left area using the wedging principle, your wu-sau must cross the center to get to the outside of that attack and come back into center to wedge it out.

----The Wu Sau hand would simply have to move forward to deflect that punch coming into the space left of centerline. Not sure if that is what is being said above or not. Unless the guy is trying to punch you in the shoulder, his strike is going to be coming towards your centerline and so it would not be a huge stretch to catch it with the Wu.

But of course there will be no time for that.

---Why would you say that? The Wu is already there. Small movement to meet the incoming punch.

So, the only option then will be for your wu-sau to use the palm side of the hand to cross the center, chasing after the incoming strike to block it as a last resort.

---And what do you suggest as an alternative?

 

[guy b]

Now, to defend the attack coming via a line through your unguarded left area using the wedging principle, your wu-sau must cross the center to get to the outside of that attack and come back into center to wedge it out.

----The Wu Sau hand would simply have to move forward to deflect that punch coming into the space left of centerline. Not sure if that is what is being said above or not. Unless the guy is trying to punch you in the shoulder, his strike is going to be coming towards your centerline and so it would not be a huge stretch to catch it with the Wu.

LFJ is talking about using the wedging principle, as defined by Geezer

But of course there will be no time for that.

---Why would you say that? The Wu is already there. Small movement to meet the incoming punch

Not a small movement using the wedging principle

So, the only option then will be for your wu-sau to use the palm side of the hand to cross the center, chasing after the incoming strike to block it as a last resort.

-

--And what do you suggest as an alternative?

Lol. Maybe Leung Jan was a bit confused those last three years in Kulo village?

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Thanks for sharing. What's wrong? Is Robin feeling a little lost without Batman around to supply the answers?

 

[guy b]

^^^^^ Thanks for sharing.

You can't think of an alternative to palm side wu chasing contact with the incoming strike when in has all but been spelled out for you . I guess you aren't aware enough of how the YM VT system works to realise what this says about the "systems" you are involved with. Oh well. I think Geezer is almost there. It is fundamental. Odd that you don't have.