Good teaching clip

[Nobody Important]

Without this basic thinking hand chasing is inevitable. No Liu sin dai da. No VT. What KPM and his various friends are advocating is either karate blocking away from the head which is suicidal, or advocating taking punches to make contact, which is very low percentage. All lacking what is one of the most basic and constantly reinforced lessons of SNT. The mind boggles.

I advocate taking the punch and counter punching. You can't chase the hand and win and you have to expect that a counter punch from an uncovered position will likely result in a straight up trade of being simultaneously punched while exposed. Minimize the potential damage by covering then countering. It's not as efficient but less risk involved than hoping you can beat the opponent by starting off one step behind. He has the upper hand because he initiated contact and you are reacting.

 

[guy b]

How is it not true? The only possible way for a left hand to follow that trajectory to the target is by moving first to the right for alignment. It isn't rocket science. The left cannot come from the same origin point as the right unless it is moved to that same starting point. And yes, don't be afraid of getting hit, its inevitable. Learn to minimize the damage and counter.

Lol at extreme focus on a mini point because you don't know the answer. Lets assume the scenario is like the clips in Lobo's video; your forward left hand is slapped down by the left of your opponent while he smacks you in the face with his right. Assume it's a straight punch. You are either chasing hands or getting hit in the head.

 

[LFJ]

I advocate taking the punch and counter punching.

What if you take the punch and hit the floor?

 

[LFJ]

Taking the punch and counter punching:

 

[guy b]

I advocate taking the punch and counter punching. You can't chase the hand and win and you have to expect that a counter punch from an uncovered position will likely result in a straight up trade of being simultaneously punched while exposed. Minimize the potential damage by covering then countering. It's not as efficient but less risk involved than hoping you can beat the opponent by starting off one step behind. He has the upper hand because he initiated contact and you are reacting.

ok, so no understanding of basic VT strategy covered in the first form.

This confirmation reinforces what the YKS and YC SNT clips showed- understanding in those mainland systems has been lost, if it was ever there. That's fine.

Unfortunately there are several charlatans pushing this kind of pseudo understanding and I do hope that you haven't been taken in by any of them. They do tend to hang around those particular wing chun derived systems.

 

[Nobody Important]

Apparently not. A bit shocking really. Luckily Nobody Important's "wing chun" also contains boxing so should all be ok when the fists start to fly. I guess that's what happens when you fill those gaps.

Call it whatever you like, its quite obvious that you've never been in a fight. That diagram has the force coming in from the left flank while your left side is being neutralized. If you think you can simply counter punch with the right to negate the attack you're wrong. You have to rotate left across your body to hit your target, even if you're fast enough the best case scenario is trading simultaneous hits.

Cover then counter allows for position. You're going to get hit in a fight, learn to minimize the damage. There is no magic VT solution to keep this from happening.

 

[LFJ]

That diagram has the force coming in from the left flank while your left side is being neutralized. If you think you can simply counter punch with the right to negate the attack you're wrong. You have to rotate left across your body to hit your target, even if you're fast enough the best case scenario is trading simultaneous hits.

The opponent is standing directly in front of you in that diagram, triangle to triangle, so to say, and punching via a line left of your center. That doesn't mean he is standing to your left. Though, maybe he could be... doesn't make a difference.

Thought this was already explained several times?

The problem is the WT-like guard on center that fails.

 

[Nobody Important]

Taking the punch and counter punching:

Pretty much what I described. Hands in center of body, cover (slipping while taking a glancing blow) and counter punch. Don't see what you're trying to argue against, it worked perfectly, knocking his opponent out.

 

[Nobody Important]

The opponent is standing directly in front of you in that diagram, triangle to triangle, so to say, and punching via a line left of your center. That doesn't mean he is standing to your left. Though, maybe he could be... doesn't make a difference.

Thought this was already explained several times?

The problem is the WT-like guard on center that fails.

Your red lines are clearly left oriented with my perspective of the bottom being the defender. For the top to strike from those angles with a left, they would first need to move right. The top clearly has flank (with his right) on the bottoms left side.

Now if your saying that the attacker is on the bottom and defender on top its a different story.

And for the record I don't use the Man Sau - Wu Sau guard, it's nearly worthless in my opinion. I use the Emergency Waist Bend & Iron Half Bridge, similar to a boxer using a Crab style guard.

 

[LFJ]

Your red lines are clearly left oriented with my perspective of the bottom being the defender. For the top to strike from those angles with a left, they would first need to move right. The top clearly has flank (with his right) on the bottoms left side.

They are within the shoulder line of an opponent standing directly in front of you, triangle to triangle.

 

[LFJ]

Pretty much what I described. Hands in center of body, cover (slipping while taking a glancing blow) and counter punch. Don't see what you're trying to argue against, it worked perfectly, knocking his opponent out.

That was a joke, right?

 

[Nobody Important]

Your red lines are clearly left oriented with my perspective of the bottom being the defender. For the top to strike from those angles with a left, they would first need to move right. The top clearly has flank (with his right) on the bottoms left side.

Now if your saying that the attacker is on the bottom and defender on top its a different story.

Lol at extreme focus on a mini point because you don't know the answer. Lets assume the scenario is like the clips in Lobo's video; your forward left hand is slapped down by the left of your opponent while he smacks you in the face with his right. Assume it's a straight punch. You are either chasing hands or getting hit in the head.

Keep assuming "what if's".

 

[Nobody Important]

That was a joke, right?

No, exactly as I was describing the absorb and counter. Your video was proof that it works. Didn't see your stand there and counter punch method in the video.

 

[LFJ]

Keep assuming "what if's".

It's not a really big "what if". It's a simple straight punch when the lead arm is unavailable. Shouldn't cause such a huge problem for WC guys.

 

[guy b]

Your red lines are clearly left oriented with my perspective of the bottom being the defender. For the top to strike from those angles with a left, they would first need to move right. The top clearly has flank (with his right) on the bottoms left side.

Holy crap, it doesn't matter which hand he is punching you with, just that your lead hand is down and your wu on centre. For the sake of argument assume your lead left hand slapped down by his left, and he punches through the gap with his right.

 

[LFJ]

No, exactly as I was describing the absorb and counter. Your video was proof that it works. Didn't see your stand there and counter punch method in the video.

That guy didn't get hit. The one who was knocked out kept trying to counterpunch while in dreamland. That would be more like it, using your tactic.

 

[LFJ]

Holy crap, it doesn't matter which hand he is punching you with, just that your lead hand is down and your wu on centre. For the sake of argument assume your lead left hand slapped down by his left, and he punches through the gap with his right.

If he could figure out how a left punch could do that we'd be getting somewhere.

 

[Juany118]

There is no time for your Hok Bong or other actions with the left hand. Your opponent has already pulled it down and is a beat ahead of you.

You have three options : 1) cross block with pak (not at all optimal but could save you from being KO'ed)
2) counter punch with the right hand. Now, if your right hand is coming from the right or center then the best you can hope for is a simultaneous knock out. However, if your right hand is coming from the left toward the opponent's center, AND THE OPPONENT HAS THROWN A STRAIGHT PUNCH, you can counter punch and defend together. If it's a hooking punch, however, you'll still get clocked.
3) hope you have the chin to take the shot

First it seems that the hand is there for this one (or similar) scenarios, at the expense of all the other scenarios where the position appears to less than optimal.

Second I am confused because, not you but others here, have constantly disparaged people who have given similar descriptions of other scenarios of "hand chasing" and this certainly appears to be just that.

All that said @Danny T and @Nobody Important together have the point.
A) (Nobody) you need to be willing to take a hit and in such a circumstance you will simply not have the time for the type of counter that is being suggested. So steel yourself and cover. A chuen sau (with the below) can be an excellent cover and since you are simply covering it isn't hand chasing.

B) (Danny and Nobody) what you need to do is use (my slang follows) "body english" and footwork. Iif it doesn't stop the strike it will at least bleed off some of the force of the blow and also change the line making the follow up strikes (the other hand is always coming) less effective as your opponent now has to change their line. "B", is often overlooked. All too often when foot work is spoken of it is through the lens of creating avenues of attack.

A simple relief or t-step is, more often than not, easier to execute than a counter because you can train it as part of the natural "flinch reflex". When executing this kind of foot work it, even if you get hit, the change of angle and nature of the movement also bleeds off force.
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It's all well and good to have as your goal/general philosophy "always forward" but there are times, as the hypothetical scenario give here illustrates, where you in essence need to cover and reset because the other option is hand chasing which has a much lower % of success.

 

[Nobody Important]

That guy didn't get hit. The one who was knocked out kept trying to counterpunch while in dreamland. That would be more like it, using your tactic.

He took a glancing blow with a right while slipping then countered with a left. I provided the picture, look at it.

 

[Nobody Important]

Holy crap, it doesn't matter which hand he is punching you with, just that your lead hand is down and your wu on centre. For the sake of argument assume your lead left hand slapped down by his left, and he punches through the gap with his right.

As you described. Now tell me how the attackers left strike can follow your red line trajectory without moving right.
If the attackers right hand is punching and the defenders left hand is neutralized, how is that not being flanked?