Good teaching clip

[Juany118]

You can't think of an alternative to palm side wu chasing contact with the incoming strike when in has all but been spelled out for you . I guess you aren't aware enough of how the YM VT system works to realise what this says about the "systems" you are involved with. Oh well. I think Geezer is almost there. It is fundamental. Odd that you don't have.

Regarding the alleged issue with @KPM and his description. If something can come from right or left and one wishes to wedge on the offense, I fail to see how having the wu sau on center is not efficient. Stuff happens in a fight. One of the points of WC is efficiency. If one needs to be prepared to react left or right at any given moment it seems more efficient to be on center. Heck the term "centerline" comes to mind.

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[guy b]

Regarding the alleged issue with @KPM and his description. If something can come from right or left and one wishes to wedge on the offense, I fail to see how having the wu sau on center is not efficient. Stuff happens in a fight. One of the points of WC is efficiency. If one needs to be prepared to react left or right at any given moment it seems more efficient to be on center. Heck the term "centerline" comes to mind.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Try reading the thread before comment?

 

[KPM]

Try reading the thread before comment?

How about you try not being a total XXXXX! And come on Robin, you could at least try and answer on your own until Batman shows up!

 

[LFJ]

@LFJI confess I have a hard time visualizing what you mean, especially considering the vagueness of what is implied by saying that
"the left man-sau is momentarily taken out of action". This could describe so many different scenarios.

I didn't think I was being vague at all. As I said in the initial post, perhaps the left man-sau is pulled down or suddenly knocked aside, in such a way that remedial actions are not available to stop a simultaneous strike.

Different situations demand different responses, including remedial actions with the man-sau as well as the wu sau, as well as other possible actions with stepping, turning, etc.

I also described the possibility of having no time or room to step, turn, or in some other way move yourself out of the line of attack before the strike lands.

If you could describe a specific, common situation ...or even better post a video-clip, It would be easier to understand your point.

I will attempt to illustrate what I mean over the triangle posted previously.

The black mark on the center line represents your right wu-sau. (Maybe you hold it closer or further out along that line. Doesn't make a difference, as you can see.)

The left side of the triangle represents your left man-sau that would originally be available to wedge or in some other way guard the space of the left facing right-triangle.

If it is momentarily unavailable to wedge or perform remedial actions, the area left of the center line is then left unguarded. The area you can cover has been reduced by half. You only have your right wu-sau covering the area right of center.

The red lines represent incoming attacks through the unguarded left area.

If your right wu-sau continues forward to attack on the center line, it won't stop the incoming attacks. Best case scenario is a double knockout.

So, you are forced to use your right wu-sau defensively. It can't attack straightaway.

There are two options. The first is represented by the green line, where the right wu-sau must travel across the center line to get wide to the outside of the incoming attack lines, and then track back to center to wedge them out.

There will be no time for this.

So, the only option is for your right wu-sau to cross center chasing the incoming strikes with a paak-sau as a last resort to avoid being hit, represented in gray.

In either of these cases, the response is indirect and inefficient, reactively crossing center to block, since a counterpunch is unavailable, and will likely leave you in an even worse position to recover and defend rapidly fired subsequent attacks.

The problem here is having an unguarded area left of center by momentarily losing your left man-sau and occupying center with your right wu-sau.

Occupying center does not help you, as can be seen.

Holding the wu-sau further to the right of the center line only exacerbates the problem, leaving only the same options, but needing to travel a longer distance to achieve them.

 

[Nobody Important]

I didn't think I was being vague at all. As I said in the initial post, perhaps the left man-sau is pulled down or suddenly knocked aside, in such a way that remedial actions are not available to stop a simultaneous strike.



I also described the possibility of having no time or room to step, turn, or in some other way move yourself out of the line of attack before the strike lands.



I will attempt to illustrate what I mean over the triangle posted previously.

The black mark on the center line represents your right wu-sau. (Maybe you hold it closer or further out along that line. Doesn't make a difference, as you can see.)

The left side of the triangle represents your left man-sau that would originally be available to wedge or in some other way guard the space of the left facing right-triangle.

If it is momentarily unavailable to wedge or perform remedial actions, the area left of the center line is then left unguarded. The area you can cover has been reduced by half. You only have your right wu-sau covering the area right of center.

The red lines represent incoming attacks through the unguarded left area.

If your right wu-sau continues forward to attack on the center line, it won't stop the incoming attacks. Best case scenario is a double knockout.

So, you are forced to use your right wu-sau defensively. It can't attack straightaway.

There are two options. The first is represented by the green line, where the right wu-sau must travel across the center line to get wide to the outside of the incoming attack lines, and then track back to center to wedge them out.

There will be no time for this.

So, the only option is for your right wu-sau to cross center chasing the incoming strikes with a paak-sau as a last resort to avoid being hit, represented in gray.

In either of these cases, the response is indirect and inefficient, reactively crossing center to block, since a counterpunch is unavailable, and will likely leave you in an even worse position to recover and defend rapidly fired subsequent attacks.

The problem here is having an unguarded area left of center by momentarily losing your left man-sau and occupying center with your right wu-sau.

Occupying center does not help you, as can be seen.

Holding the wu-sau further to the right of the center line only exacerbates the problem, leaving only the same options, but needing to travel a longer distance to achieve them.

The reason why nearly nothing will work is because the opponent has flank and has taken your center, you describe a situation where you are unable to move and every scenario you presented for counter is a defensive action based on chasing hands. It's a sucker punch type of scenario. Realistic chance of defending is very low. Best bet is to drop your chin, take the shot and if able start swinging. Though I'm sure to here some unrealistic, convoluted, wishful thinking responses as to how wrong I am.

 

[LFJ]

The reason why nearly nothing will work is because the opponent has flank and has taken your center,

No. The opponent may be standing directly in front of you, both centers face-to-face, you're occupying the center line with your wu-sau, but they are throwing a punch via a line through the unguarded left area where your man-sau has been removed.

 

[Nobody Important]

No. The opponent may be standing directly in front of you, both centers face-to-face, you're occupying the center line with your wu-sau, but they are throwing a punch via a line through the unguarded left area where your man-sau has been removed.

That means his right hand is engaged with your left Man Sau, leaving only a left punch. If your Wu Sau is center, the path is already obstructed.

Or, he cleared your left Man Sau with his left and then punched with his left. Your right Wu Sau should still be center. If it's a body shot, take it and punch with right hand. If it's a right punch, Wu Sau is already obstructing. In any case you should be constantly moving forward to negate his power. You're gonna get hit in a fight, learn how to take shots, so you're not always playing defense and chasing hands.

 

[LFJ]

That means his right hand is engaged with your left Man Sau, leaving only a left punch. If your Wu Sau is center, the path is already obstructed.

Or, he cleared your left Man Sau with his left and then punched with his left. Your right Wu Sau should still be center. If it's a body shot, take it and punch with right hand. If it's a right punch, Wu Sau is already obstructing. In any case you should be constantly moving forward to negate his power. You're gonna get hit in a fight, learn how to take shots, so you're not always playing defense and chasing hands.

You are not looking at the (red) attack lines coming through the left facing right-triangle, left of center.

Left or right punch doesn't matter.

Your right wu-sau occupying the center line cannot obstruct those lines.

Moving forward will amplify his power as you walk right into the clean punch. Could be a knockout and game over.

 

[guy b]

That means his right hand is engaged with your left Man Sau, leaving only a left punch. If your Wu Sau is center, the path is already obstructed.

Or, he cleared your left Man Sau with his left and then punched with his left. Your right Wu Sau should still be center. If it's a body shot, take it and punch with right hand. If it's a right punch, Wu Sau is already obstructing. In any case you should be constantly moving forward to negate his power. You're gonna get hit in a fight, learn how to take shots, so you're not always playing defense and chasing hands.

Sounds like you need to revisit SNT. A few basics missing. A bit concerning that your basic response is "take it on the chin"

 

[Nobody Important]

You are not looking at the (red) attack lines coming through the left facing right-triangle, left of center.

Left or right punch doesn't matter.

Your right wu-sau occupying the center line cannot obstruct those lines.

Moving forward will amplify his power as you walk right into the clean punch. Could be a knockout and game over.

Sounds like Atari Boxing.

If he is standing square shoulder to you his right hand cannot follow along those paths to strike unless he moved left prior to punching. If not it only leaves his left hand that is able to follow along those paths. In either scenario see previous post.

This is the problem with the majority of Wing Chun practitioners, pontificating hypothetical situations based on theoretical puzzles lacking in detail that don't really have a realistic solution but look good on paper.

Simplest solution, cover your center, expect to get hit and condition for it, don't chase hands, be aggressive, continue to press forward and hit.

There is no perfect solution for any of these hypothetical "what if" situations. There are variables not accounted for and to try and factor them in, leads to more "what if" crap.

Over analyzing and trying to use math and geometry to support offensive and defensive strategy is foolish.

Congratulations on replacing Hendrik.

 

[LFJ]

If he is standing square shoulder to you his right hand cannot follow along those paths to strike unless he moved left prior to punching.

Why not?

Maybe he is holding a boxing guard with his right arm to the side of center. The lines show a common striking path coming from the right into your center.

Or maybe he is not square shouldered but is throwing a rotating cross. It can take any of those lines. And again, a wu-sau on the center cannot obstruct them.

This is the problem with the majority of Wing Chun practitioners, pontificating hypothetical situations based on theoretical puzzles lacking in detail that don't really have a realistic solution but look good on paper.

Simplest solution, cover your center, expect to get hit and condition for it, don't chase hands, be aggressive, continue to press forward and hit.

This is a very simple and common situation. If your WC doesn't have a realistic solution, that's a problem.

If your only solution is to get hit and hope to be able to swing back, that's a problem. Hope is not a tactic.

Before you can come to a workable solution, you have to acknowledge the problem. If you don't recognize the problem with this obsession of occupying center, you won't ask, look for, or accept the solution.

If you are happy getting punched in the face as a basic tactic, carry on.

 

[Nobody Important]

Why not?

Maybe he is holding a boxing guard with his right arm to the side of center. The lines show a common striking path coming from the right into your center.

Or maybe he is not square shouldered but is throwing a rotating cross. It can take any of those lines. And again, a wu-sau on the center cannot obstruct them.



This is a very simple and common situation. If your WC doesn't have a realistic solution, that's a problem.

If your only solution is to get hit and hope to be able to swing back, that's a problem. Hope is not a tactic.

Before you can come to a workable solution, you have to acknowledge the problem. If you don't recognize the problem with this obsession of occupying center, you won't ask, look for, or accept the solution.

If you are happy getting punched in the face as a basic tactic, carry on.

My mistake & I own up to it. In my last post I meant left, his left hand cannot follow along those lines without moving right. Regardless, the premise is still valid, he's taking an angle to flank your center. Move in or back away from his center and keep your center protected. And yes, learn to take a punch, in a fight your gonna get hit. Sometimes you'll have to compromise and take a hit to give one. I don't pretend that it's possible to bock everything coming in, neither do boxers.

 

[LFJ]

In my last post I meant left, his left hand cannot follow along those lines without moving right.

Depends on where his punch is initiating from, what type of guard and action. But that is beside the point. We're looking at those striking paths and your guard/response options to them. Left or right punch is irrelevant if they knock you out.

Regardless, the premise is still valid, he's taking an angle to flank your center. Move in or back away from his center and keep your center protected.

None of those striking paths cross your center line. Your right wu-sau on center isn't obstructing those paths and can't without crossing center to chase the arm. Are you not seeing this clearly illustrated?

Moving in is only going to run yourself into the punch, and there may not be time or room to move back before the punch lands.

And yes, learn to take a punch, in a fight your gonna get hit. Sometimes you'll have to compromise and take a hit to give one. I don't pretend that it's possible to bock everything coming in, neither do boxers.

Nor do I, but it's a matter of percentages. I'd rather not go 50/50 or even less if I can help it.

Wu-sau occupying center is very low percentage. Take the hit as a tactic and it might be the last one you take.

 

[guy b]

Depends on where his punch is initiating from, what type of guard and action. But that is beside the point. We're looking at those striking paths and your guard/response options to them. Left or right punch is irrelevant if they knock you out.

None of those striking paths cross your center line. Your right wu-sau on center isn't obstructing those paths and can't without crossing center to chase the arm. Are you not seeing this clearly illustrated?

Moving in is only going to run yourself into the punch, and there may not be time or room to move back before the punch lands.

Nor do I, but it's a matter of percentages. I'd rather not go 50/50 or even less if I can help it.

Wu-sau occupying center is very low percentage. Take the hit as a tactic and it might be the last one you take.

It is really odd to see that the basic lessons of the first form are lacking. With such holes in understanding would think a less hostile and arrogant approach would be sensible.

 

[KPM]

Sounds like you need to revisit SNT. A few basics missing. A bit concerning that your basic response is "take it on the chin"

Susshhh Robin! Batman has shown up, since you were unable to provide an answer. So it seems your input is unnecessary.

 

[KPM]

So, the only option is for your right wu-sau to cross center chasing the incoming strikes with a paak-sau as a last resort to avoid being hit, represented in gray.

In either of these cases, the response is indirect and inefficient, reactively crossing center to block, since a counterpunch is unavailable, and will likely leave you in an even worse position to recover and defend rapidly fired subsequent attacks.

----Maybe slightly indirect, but not inefficient. After all, that is one of the reasons for keeping the Wu Sau in that position....it acts as a backup when things don't go as planned. You have painted a tough situation and then are arguing against the natural back-up response to that situation. Keeping from getting hit when you are placed in a bad situation seems efficient to me compared to getting hit! And remember....YOU are the one that said there is not time to step, pivot, or anything else.


Occupying center does not help you, as can be seen.

---Only a small movement of the that Wu Sau is required to cover the attack. This could be done with a slight pivot as well, regardless of what you say. Then from the Wu to Pak to your own strike in a split second. His other hand is occupied with pushing your Man Sau hand down, so once you deflect that punch he should be open to your follow up strike. That doesn't seem all that inefficient to me.

Before you can come to a workable solution, you have to acknowledge the problem. If you don't recognize the problem with this obsession of occupying center, you won't ask, look for, or accept the solution.

----And likewise, with this obsession of thinking that anything that doesn't punch in directly is "chasing hands" and not acknowledging that there may be situations when not punching directly is necessary, you close the door on lots of valid responses by calling them "inefficient." And you haven't yet described what you would do in your theoretical scenario.

 

[LFJ]

----Maybe slightly indirect, but not inefficient. After all, that is one of the reasons for keeping the Wu Sau in that position....it acts as a backup when things don't go as planned.

It is inefficient because it is chasing the hand rather than counterpunching.

You have painted a tough situation and then are arguing against the natural back-up response to that situation.

I'm arguing against wu-sau occupying center and then having to chase the arm.

Keeping from getting hit when you are placed in a bad situation seems efficient to me compared to getting hit!

Chasing the arm is inefficient compared to counterpunching.

And remember....YOU are the one that said there is not time to step, pivot, or anything else.

Entirely possible, especially given the speed at which punches can be thrown compared to your reaction time and body movement.

---Only a small movement of the that Wu Sau is required to cover the attack. This could be done with a slight pivot as well, regardless of what you say. Then from the Wu to Pak to your own strike in a split second. His other hand is occupied with pushing your Man Sau hand down, so once you deflect that punch he should be open to your follow up strike. That doesn't seem all that inefficient to me.

Who says his other hand must be occupied? Your man-sau could have been suddenly knocked aside and his second hand is coming fast behind the first punch.

You cross center chasing laterally after the first punch and his next punch cuts through your center.

It's just too low percentage and makes recovery very difficult, and if chasing the arm is your basic response, that's a problem.

 

[Lobo66]

Here is an example from MT. The cross trap of the lead guard hand (when both are orthodox) :

The left hand is trapped and pulled down in a hooking action (much like WC's huen sau) leaving the right side open for attack. The opponent is left with the less than desirable option of cross blocking with his right hand (much like the WC pak sau action).

In this situation, the hooking and pulling down of the left hand leaves the opponent momentarily unbalanced. Furthermore, the follow-up punch is often coming in an arc, an overhand right for example. It doesn't matter where your wu sau hand is, you just simply don't have many options.

 

[KPM]

---Ok. I agree that you guys have described a difficult situation. A hooking parry onto the Man Sau followed immediately with a punch from the same hand as Lobo just described would be very difficult for anyone to deal with. But LFJ started this scenario out making it sound like another Wing Chun guy had simply stepped forward and Pak'd your Man Sau down as he punched you. THAT is easy enough to deal with!

Chasing the arm is inefficient compared to counterpunching.

---But you've already said that counterpunching wasn't an option!

Who says his other hand must be occupied? Your man-sau could have been suddenly knocked aside and his second hand is coming fast behind the first punch.

---Ok. Then if his other hand is no longer occupied with trapping yours downward, then your trapped hand is no longer occupied either and is free to respond......with....dare I say it.....a Hok Bong? Or some other rising motion to cover the line?

---So given the scenario where a WSLVT guy has had someone close on him and has knocked his lead hand aside and pounding a combination of hard punches (in other words the scenario you are describing).....what are you going to do?

 

[LFJ]

LFJ started this scenario out making it sound like another Wing Chun guy had simply stepped forward and Pak'd your Man Sau down as he punched you. THAT is easy enough to deal with!

Yet, your response is still to chase the hand.

Chasing the arm is inefficient compared to counterpunching.

---But you've already said that counterpunching wasn't an option!

For someone occupying center in a WT-like guard.

---Ok. Then if his other hand is no longer occupied with trapping yours downward, then your trapped hand is no longer occupied either and is free to respond......with....dare I say it.....a Hok Bong? Or some other rising motion to cover the line?

How slow must their punch be for your arm to pop right back up and block it?

Even if they're slow enough and you're fast enough, your response is still to chase the arm. This time up instead of sideways.

---So given the scenario where a WSLVT guy has had someone close on him and has knocked his lead hand aside and pounding a combination of hard punches (in other words the scenario you are describing).....what are you going to do?

Counterpunch.

How, I have all but spelled out for you. Still hoping you can come to it yourself since it's basic first form thinking.