Good Cop / Bad Cop

[jks9199]

With no criticsm whatsoever implied, that's such a sad indictment of the state of affairs .

You should have no reason not to hold your head up high for what you do, sir. I certainly couldn't do it - not in your country at any rate (stress levels massively too high).

If police officers are not being seen as custodians of the public good, what does that speak of as to the general standard of policing? Or at least the public perception of the standard of policing?

One part of why I'm quiet about my profession (not secretive, but quiet... Several neighbors have come to know what I do) is because, sadly, work can follow me home.

A few months ago, I had professional contact (and not positive...) with several dumbasses who happen to live in my community. The mother of one of them showed up at my door, and hassled my wife. (The only reason I didn't return the favor with my buddies from work in tac gear was my wife didn't call me when the woman was there...) I know people who've looked up to see someone they arrested sitting down the block or in the grocery store... So, to protect my family, and for my peace of mind, I don't advertise what I do. At the same time... a Google search of my name and employer pops up several news articles and other hits about me.

The US culture is only grudgingly tolerant of its guardians; the love and adoration we were shown shortly after 9/11 or the DC-area snipers (Malvo & Mohammed) faded rapidly... In a couple of cases that I know of, as soon as someone got a ticket. I literally had one woman inform me that I "ruined" the capture of the snipers for daring to cite her for driving nearly double the posted limit, on a dark, curvy, shoulderless & pothole filled road...

 

[Brian King]

Sukerkin wrote:

“If police officers are not being seen as custodians of the public good, what does that speak of as to the general standard of policing? Or at least the public perception of the standard of policing?”

I think it is more that they are seen as possible inconvenience or trouble at least until they are needed than a testimonial on their occupations social standard or approval ratings.

I am a supporter of law enforcement officers having many as students and fellow martial art practitioners and instructors and many close friends on the job. At the same time I do not like having an officer in the car behind me even if I am not speeding or breaking any other law.

Years ago while in stop and go traffic in RentonWashington I was behind a Renton motorcycle officer and even today years later I smile when I recall his license plate frame. “Smile I could be behind you”

While working the door we never liked it when officers would come into the bar for a look around or would stay parked in the parking lot or across the street. Not a big deal but it added tension to the room and often people would act up after they left almost as some kind of reaction, yet when we needed them to show up I loved it when the cars would come up and empty out a half of a dozen officers. When not needed they are authority and cold water and sometimes threat rolled into one, when needed they are angels and authority and threat rolled into one. I might not like that rather aggressive large officer when he is asking for ID because I was speeding or otherwise attracted his attention but when fighting multiple opponents that night out in the parking lot I loved it when his car came up and he bounded out.

I can understand JKS9199’s and other officers reluctance to make mention of thier profession while making contact with people outside of the job. Hey can you fix my ticket or the “are you here for me?” lame jokes that even I have heard too many times just being around officers. That uncomfortable feeling that some have as they monitor what they say when around authorities that even if they try to hide it everyone else also feels it including the officer. There is also the expectation that if there is trouble they will handle it, a house or car broken in down the street, a loud drunk at the other side of the restaurant or that group of young people by the door no matter if the office is on the ‘clock’ or not. Then there are the questions is this or that legal like the officer is some kind of attorney giving out free legal advice. And for the officers there is that feeling of always being on the clock and watched for anything that they might say that might reflect badly on the uniform or taken out of context that will come back and haunt them even if said out of uniform and off the clock. I am sure that there are times we all like to turn off our work and just be a wife or a husband but this can be extremely difficult for those whose first name is always Officer.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Drac]

lots of cops don't admit what they do socially. (My wife just tells people I'm a martial arts teacher... I sometimes say I'm a garbage collector...)
.

That is funny..I have been saying that for years..

 

[Kreth]

I sometimes say I'm a garbage collector...

That is funny..I have been saying that for years..

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, do you both realize this actually adds merit to Cryo's comment about cops expecting people to be douchebags? :idunno:

 

[Drac]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, do you both realize this actually adds merit to Cryo's comment about cops expecting people to be douchebags? :idunno:

I didn't see it that way..I have been in social situations where what I do for a living has slipped out...There is ALWAYS some jerkoff present that feels the need to tell me about him being harrased by the local ******* coppers OR they will ask legal questions that Perry Mason couldn't figure out..

 

[jks9199]

I know doctors and lawyers who avoid saying what they do for a living, because the moment they do, there's always the guy who wants free professional advice. And, as I said, there are some serious safety concerns for us.

This may be one of the things that's more unique about the DC area -- but around here, "what do you do" is a common conversation starter. There's also a kind of general acceptance of some vagueness or even outright deception; there are a lot of people around here who don't really work where their documents may say or where they're supposed to... My general approach is generally to simply say where I work... or that I work for the government. If pressed, it depends on the circumstances as to what answer they get.

Then there's the simple issue of actually being able to be off the clock. Despite some popular perception, cops do actually get to be off the clock. We don't need someone pounding on our door because they got a ticket or whatever when we're home any more than a doctor does...

What's so offensive about trying to keep a peaceable atmosphere socially by being a little evasive about what you do?

 

[elder999]

There's also a kind of general acceptance of some vagueness or even outright deception; there are a lot of people around here who don't really work where there documents may say or where they're supposed to.......What's so offensive about trying to keep a peaceable atmosphere socially by being a little evasive about what you do?

Don't think it's particularly offensive-I work with a whole town of people who've had to do this, and had to do it for more nearly three generations....heck, when I worked at the nuke plant back in New York, nuclear power and the utility companies were so unpopular with some that there was a standard, evasive answer:

I work for a major industrial concern with its interests in New York. Put people right to sleep, that one did....:lol:

 

[Cryozombie]

Frogot about that on my list...waking people up in the middle of the night to tell them a loved one has died.

[sarcasm] those douchebags[/sarcasm]

Ya know Arc... YOU said here:

And the thing "civilians" (non-police..whatever...some people take offense at the term) have to remember is that after just a few years on the job, police officers have been lied to by moms, priests, kids, teachers, nurses, doctors, judges, attorneys and just about everybody else that they have run into. After a few instances of believing someones story, going the distance for them then getting let down, cynisism is a natural result. So when we act like we "are not getting the whole truth..." there is a reason for it.

Which to me is "Every kind of person lies to us no matter who they are so we expect it, you should understand our cynicism"

I just translated that to "they all are douchebags".

Again, that was specifically directed to people you deal with in a Law ENFORCEMENT capacity.

Here lemme clarify what I meant for you: "People we deal with in an ENFORCEMENT Capacity of some kind are all guilty of being douchebags UNTIL they prove themselves innocent"

How's that?

And understand somthing else, Mr "Us cops are so perfect and you are an ***, zombie"... *I* didn't make that up, one of the cops at our dojo basically said that to us. YOUR comment above about everyone being a liar reinforced that in my mind.

And... if cops can make broad sweeping judgements about "Civilians" based on the ones they deal with, and thats ok... then guess what? Bitching about us doing it about cops... well... makes a person a hypocrite.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I didn't see it that way..I have been in social situations where what I do for a living has slipped out...There is ALWAYS some jerkoff present that feels the need to tell me about him being harrased by the local ******* coppers OR they will ask legal questions that Perry Mason couldn't figure out..

Drac et al,

I get the same thing. About software and also about cars.

I listen. I acknowledge that there could be a problem.

What I see from police officers, is that they never acknowledge that it was even remotely possible that some other officer might have made a msitake. There are some posts about that link in bad cops getting arrested and such. But they do not acknowledge that it was possible themselves, There always is plausible deniablility on their part.

I mean I could ask people about their illegal downloads. I could ask about following instructions while loading and removing software.

I could ask people about maintenance on their cars. I know some that actually complain to me about their car. The same car they take to the track and race. This piece broke over time at high torque levels. I should have designed it better.

The more I deny the possibility of a bad piece or quality control or bad design, the more they believe that they have a case. Thou does protest to much.

But if I acknowledge the possibility and nod when I listen, they either accept it and move on. If they stay, then I realize they are willing to have a real discussion and I can then ask them questions about what they did or what happened. But for those that want to just complain then they complain and they move on.

I know doctors and lawyers who avoid saying what they do for a living, because the moment they do, there's always the guy who wants free professional advice. And, as I said, there are some serious safety concerns for us.

This may be one of the things that's more unique about the DC area -- but around here, "what do you do" is a common conversation starter. There's also a kind of general acceptance of some vagueness or even outright deception; there are a lot of people around here who don't really work where their documents may say or where they're supposed to... My general approach is generally to simply say where I work... or that I work for the government. If pressed, it depends on the circumstances as to what answer they get.

Then there's the simple issue of actually being able to be off the clock. Despite some popular perception, cops do actually get to be off the clock. We don't need someone pounding on our door because they got a ticket or whatever when we're home any more than a doctor does...

What's so offensive about trying to keep a peaceable atmosphere socially by being a little evasive about what you do?

Well as to the security issue, I understand. But if it is a small party and you are there, and there is a security issue, then why are you there in the first place?

Why does a police officer associate with these Security risk to their life? Or is it that all people are a possible security risk. Everyone is against you because you are a police officer?


As to lawyers and Doctors not telling people what they do, the one I know do. But, I could see your point about how some could. (* You see I acknowledge the other posters have a valid point and a place to stand on for their arguement. Trying to get that from a police officer is difficult or near impossible. *) Free advice in their field could lead to malpractice cases, or even death.

Even when I know a police officer has violated my rights, or is wrong about the law. I smile, and take notes. I agree with everything they say, and then call my lawyer and make sure the offcier then is brought to the case. But, here is my experince for all you Honest LEO's on this board, is that once I fight it in court the officer does not show up and the ticket or case is dropped. I find this to an issue. I am guilty by the LEO, and then I have to PROVE I am innocent in Court. It seems a violation of my rights. It seems to be an injustice of the process and the rights of the people. A simple acknowledgement from time to time from the Honest and good LEO's that there are some that are gray or not so good, and that it is possible that some other HUMAN Being serving as a Police Officer could have been wrong and or made a mistake.


If you search on this site you will find an old thread, where someone "yelled" at me that I should not be arguing or even challenging the comments comming from another poster as he was/is a LEO. I got private messages from the LEO asking me to drop my challenges, here on this site for he as in fear of getting in trouble at work. The issue is that I was being attacked with the threat of Police, but when I questioned it, I was wrong. So, even those who are hard core friends of the LEO's support their actions many times. I think this is why they are hard core friends. But, instead they cannot handle a true friendship of someone being able to challenge a point and have a discussion on a point.

This is why I really did not want to post here on this subject. I know police who have to be right as that is their job to be right, from their point of view. I have others who will admit in private that there are some of run the gray area, because they can. Because they enjoy it. But they never admit it in public. Even to someone who support the LEO's and the risk they take every day even with a simple traffic stop, this seems to be a conspiracy within industry. A code of silence.

I have been wrong before in my life. I admit that. But try to get an officer to do so, is almost impossible even in private. From my experience of course.

 

[jks9199]

Rich,
Go through this thread; in fact, go through all my posts on MT. Find where I've said that cops are always right. Please... because I know I have specifically said that they aren't in this thread alone. I have distinguished between police officers and criminals who snuck through and got badges; I admit, that's a semantic difference, but it matters to me.

I'll even admit; I've made mistakes. I don't have every code section memorized. I've never deliberately violated someone's rights, and I've never had one of my searches or arrests thrown out. I did do a search warrant on what I had every reason to believe was someone's home -- and it turned out merely to be a place that they crash at frequently enough to seem to live there and claim as home in some records. But I had probable cause to support the warrant.

You asked why I would be somewhere that security would be an issue. It's simple. Sometimes, it may not be a choice. Maybe it's an office party with my wife. Or maybe it's a PTA meeting, or homeowner's association meeting... or just church or the grocery store. We segregate criminals; they show up where we live and do business, too. And, depending on the criminals you deal with, they do surveillance on us. I know a guy who had a gang member sitting outside his home for several hours; it wasn't a coincidence. I described how a neighbor showed up at my house and hassled my wife because the neighbor's kid got in trouble. You think there might be a concern about some of my neighbors becoming my "customers?"

 

[Drac]

You asked why I would be somewhere that security would be an issue. It's simple. Sometimes, it may not be a choice. Maybe it's an office party with my wife. Or maybe it's a PTA meeting, or homeowner's association meeting... or just church or the grocery store.

Walking out of the liquore store ( off duty) I saw a young black male bothering an elderly male for money..I could see that the old man was afraid, so I tod this POS gang banger to hit the road..He took offense to my messing up his panhandling and got in my face about it, even after I badged him, and he would up hitting the ground and the local boys had to be called to take this wanted felon to jail..

 

[shesulsa]

What I'm seeing is there are LEOs here who acknowledge there are good and bad and those who are just defensive. I see non LEOs here that are good and bad and those who are just defensive.

I think, though, that the points are moot at this point.

 

[Archangel M]

As these topics always seem to boil down to the same people with the same stories and issues I think you are probably right.

If on this whole forum, only 4-5 keep cropping up whenever the "bad cop" issue arises then I think we are doing OK.

 

[MJS]

What I'm seeing is there are LEOs here who acknowledge there are good and bad and those who are just defensive. I see non LEOs here that are good and bad and those who are just defensive.

I think, though, that the points are moot at this point.

I think this thread was moot about 25 pages back.

 

[MJS]

As these topics always seem to boil down to the same people with the same stories and issues I think you are probably right.

If on this whole forum, only 4-5 keep cropping up whenever the "bad cop" issue arises then I think we are doing OK.

Are there really that many depts. out there with nothing but bad apples? I mean, I know that everyone is far from an alter boy, but seems to me that there're folks on here who seem to attact nothing but 'bad cops.'

 

[Archangel M]

Are there really that many depts. out there with nothing but bad apples? I mean, I know that everyone is far from an alter boy, but seems to me that there're folks on here who seem to attact nothing but 'bad cops.'

Same way in the "real world" too as I find it.

 

[Drac]

Are there really that many depts. out there with nothing but bad apples? I mean, I know that everyone is far from an alter boy, but seems to me that there're folks on here who seem to attact nothing but 'bad cops.'

In all the depts I have interacted with up here I think I have only met a small handfull of " bad" cops, I hear stories about more..Then you have to expound on the term bad..What makes a cop bad?...A take-no-crap-from-an-uncooperative suspect attitude??..The " traffic nazi " cop that will not honor your courtesy cards or badge..

 

[jks9199]

Are there really that many depts. out there with nothing but bad apples? I mean, I know that everyone is far from an alter boy, but seems to me that there're folks on here who seem to attact nothing but 'bad cops.'

I know one "department of last resort" that'll hire you if you're good enough to be asked to resign from any other department... but even there, most of the cops are actually decent. They have a couple of knuckleheads, and I don't turn my back on that agency... but that's only a couple.

There are some very corrupt, very bad departments out there. Not surprisingly, lots of them are part of equally corrupt governments and communities. But they're not particularly common. And there are some parts of departments (like the LA Rampart division scandal or the cops involved in the Abner Luima incident in NY...) that do some incredibly stupid, often illegal things. Sometimes, they're misreading "signals" from someone in the chain of command, other times it's just plain "dumbassity" to coin a word.

 

[Sukerkin]

"Dumbassity" - a new word is born .

I've read through this thread with a mixture of disbelief, frustration, aggrivation and agreement in equal measure.

The conclusion that I have reached is that I am glad that the police in Britain do not have to operate in the same environment as the police in America. But also I am glad that the police in Britain do not have the autonomy of action that it seems the police in America do.

Power {over others} corrupts. Experience of the real world, compared to the ideal, decays expectations. They are the true absolutes of governance and law enforcement. No matter how righteous an officer may be when he starts, those twin rasps of power and experience will erode his moral compass as sure as rain erodes stone.

It is not the fault of the officer, per se, but of the pressures and expectations that are laid upon him or her. I freely admit I would make a terrible officer - I'd be more like Judge Dredd than Officer Friendly. That being so, is it right for me to get on my high-horse about the behaviour of individuals who choose, as I self-absolve myself from, the profession of law enforcement?

The annoying answer is both Yes and No. I have a right to expect fair treatment from those who enforce the law but also, if those that do this hard job are held to too high a yardstick then none will choose to do it. Where does that leave us?

In the end, I'd rather have a small percentage of 'bad apples' and a half-way effective police force than no force at all.

 

[MJS]

In all the depts I have interacted with up here I think I have only met a small handfull of " bad" cops, I hear stories about more..Then you have to expound on the term bad..What makes a cop bad?...A take-no-crap-from-an-uncooperative suspect attitude??..The " traffic nazi " cop that will not honor your courtesy cards or badge..

Exactly! What is bad to me, is probably going to differ from the next person, and so on and so on. I've gone on a few ride-a-longs with a cop where I work. The guy has a nickname...the arrest machine. He is probably one of the most proactive cops on the force, goes out and actively looks for people with warrants, knows his dist. inside and out, big into community policing, etc. To some folks, he is great, as he's keeping the neighborhood safe. To others, he's a PITA.

I know one "department of last resort" that'll hire you if you're good enough to be asked to resign from any other department... but even there, most of the cops are actually decent. They have a couple of knuckleheads, and I don't turn my back on that agency... but that's only a couple.

There are some very corrupt, very bad departments out there. Not surprisingly, lots of them are part of equally corrupt governments and communities. But they're not particularly common. And there are some parts of departments (like the LA Rampart division scandal or the cops involved in the Abner Luima incident in NY...) that do some incredibly stupid, often illegal things. Sometimes, they're misreading "signals" from someone in the chain of command, other times it's just plain "dumbassity" to coin a word.

Thanks for the reply.