Good Cop / Bad Cop

[jks9199]

"Dumbassity" - a new word is born .

I've read through this thread with a mixture of disbelief, frustration, aggrivation and agreement in equal measure.

The conclusion that I have reached is that I am glad that the police in Britain do not have to operate in the same environment as the police in America. But also I am glad that the police in Britain do not have the autonomy of action that it seems the police in America do.

Power {over others} corrupts. Experience of the real world, compared to the ideal, decays expectations. They are the true absolutes of governance and law enforcement. No matter how righteous an officer may be when he starts, those twin rasps of power and experience will erode his moral compass as sure as rain erodes stone.

It is not the fault of the officer, per se, but of the pressures and expectations that are laid upon him or her. I freely admit I would make a terrible officer - I'd be more like Judge Dredd than Officer Friendly. That being so, is it right for me to get on my high-horse about the behaviour of individuals who choose, as I self-absolve myself from, the profession of law enforcement?

The annoying answer is both Yes and No. I have a right to expect fair treatment from those who enforce the law but also, if those that do this hard job are held to too high a yardstick then none will choose to do it. Where does that leave us?

In the end, I'd rather have a small percentage of 'bad apples' and a half-way effective police force than no force at all.

As much as US law enforcement has a common heritage and some common principles with British law enforcement, just like US culture -- it's also very different. The US is much more diverse than any other country; on top of that, there are different cultures from region to region, sometimes even within a state.

But even in England, a cop has a lot of autonomy and authority. (After discussions with Tez and others -- in some way, more authority than I have!) It goes with the job; the alternative ends up with cops who can't do anything without micromanaging guidance.

The best we can do starts within the police department. We do our level best to hire the best people, who have reasonably balanced personalities and hopefully won't abuse their authority. Within a department, you do your best to cultivate a culture of integrity and reasonable respect for the community. Then -- the community has to demand the same of its police. That means working with cops -- and reporting officers who don't live up to the ideal, too.

 

[morph4me]

I've been following this thread for awhile and have read both sides of the issue. I have no axe to grind with either side of the issue and I think both sides probably have a degree of truth to them. LEO's are people, just like everyone else, so it's only common sesne that you're going to get your share of goo hardworking, cops trying to do their jobs to the best of their abilities, and the stupid, mean spirited, *******s who misusetheir authority that you have in any other segment of society, I've met both. On the other side of the coin, there are people who understand that the police have a job to do and comply with requests, and people who feel entitled and want to be bigshots and ignore the authority that we as a society give to our LEO's. It's the way it's always been, and always will be. The cops are being recorded and held accountable or vindicated more and more. Personall, I want to thank the LEO's for taking a thankless job and trying to make a difference.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,
Go through this thread; in fact, go through all my posts on MT. Find where I've said that cops are always right. Please... because I know I have specifically said that they aren't in this thread alone. I have distinguished between police officers and criminals who snuck through and got badges; I admit, that's a semantic difference, but it matters to me.

I'll even admit; I've made mistakes. I don't have every code section memorized. I've never deliberately violated someone's rights, and I've never had one of my searches or arrests thrown out. I did do a search warrant on what I had every reason to believe was someone's home -- and it turned out merely to be a place that they crash at frequently enough to seem to live there and claim as home in some records. But I had probable cause to support the warrant.

You asked why I would be somewhere that security would be an issue. It's simple. Sometimes, it may not be a choice. Maybe it's an office party with my wife. Or maybe it's a PTA meeting, or homeowner's association meeting... or just church or the grocery store. We segregate criminals; they show up where we live and do business, too. And, depending on the criminals you deal with, they do surveillance on us. I know a guy who had a gang member sitting outside his home for several hours; it wasn't a coincidence. I described how a neighbor showed up at my house and hassled my wife because the neighbor's kid got in trouble. You think there might be a concern about some of my neighbors becoming my "customers?"

JKS,

If I may be so bold.

In one post you may acknowledge there are bad cops.

In the next Post you tell someone that it is all their fault.

Perception is the key here. A random post not directed at anyone that says there are bad cops and oh look here some links, does not really acknowledge the other persons point of view. It makes it look like a red hering. You get to be jaded by the people you deal with it also means that people on the internet are also jaded when it comes to posts.


As to personal Safety, I understand being places where someone might come at you random. I understand having bad guys track you.

Do you, make sure you are not followed home every time no matter how long it takes? I did when I ran security and many of the hot spots. Only a few trusted friends knew where I lived.

Do you or your buddies show up with a cruiser at your home? if you do then you are asking for your neighbors to know that you are a police officer.

As to the Wife's Holiday Party, I can see not hurting her career by making a scene, but, if you condemn people for lying to you, and you do it for your own reasons as well is it really such a bad thing? Or shoudl we all just assume that everyone is a liar and nothing is true?

I am not trying to have a fight with you.

I am just trying to point out the perception issues, that police do not see for they are in the forest so deep they cannot see that not all the trees are hiding bad guys.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

SPD Officers Find Shelter For 60 Displaced People

On 12/21/08, at 9:48 p.m., 911 received a call of a disturbance involving 60 people outside the Pavilion Shelter, at the Seattle Center. According to the caller, a Greyhound Bus dropped the people at the shelter and advised them that they could stay there. When they attempted to get into the shelter they were informed that they were full and did not have room. Before the group could return to the bus, it had left. The displaced people were out front of the shelter and were very angry.

Metro or Greyhound were not available to assist with the transportation, so all transports were completed by patrol and West Anti Crime Team. They were all in shelters, 1 ½ hours after the original call.

http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2008/12/22/spd-officers-find-shelter-for-60-displaced-people/

 

[Cryozombie]

I saw this Video yesterday...

It's apparently not just Civilians who give a hard time to the Cops durring routine traffic stops...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DrRdIeK9xoc

And Here is a good example of Cops being called out for their behavior. (Although in this case, as a man, I don't know if their behavior was exactly wrong mind you. LOL. I'd say only in Chicago, but yeah.)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FJaAe7sYoCA

 

[elder999]

ER doctors say police use excessive force

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – In a survey of a random sample of U.S. emergency physicians, virtually all said they believed that law enforcement officers use excessive force to arrest and detain suspects.
The sample included 315 respondents. While 99.8 percent believed excessive force is used, almost as many (97.8 percent) reported that they had managed cases that they suspected or that the patient stated had involved excessive use of force by law enforcement officers.
Nearly two thirds (65.3 percent) estimated that they had treated two or more cases of suspected excessive use of force per year among their patients, according to a report of the survey published in the January 2009 issue of the Emergency Medicine Journal.

 

[jks9199]

ER doctors say police use excessive force

There's been a bit of an ongoing disagreement between some paramedics, some ER docs, and cops. We bring someone in cuffed, and they want them uncuffed. We fight a guy on the street, and the medical side of things sees a guy who's been thumped. They don't see the struggle that led up to the thumping...

Again -- I'm not saying that there aren't cops out there who use excessive force. I even discussed one of my partners with my sergeant once, because I can identify too many of his arrestees by their mugshot pictures -- and their injuries.

But there are also two sides to that use of force issue, and the doctors often don't see what led up to a situation, and often by the time the doc is dealing with the patient -- the patient's demeanor and attitude has shifted significantly. The relationship is also a bit different...

Also -- the article basically seems to me to be saying that the docs think they're seeing incidents -- not that they're seeing a systemic pattern that all or even many patients cops bring in are victims of excessive force. The doctors noted two primary issues: blunt force by use of fists and "too tight handcuffs." It's hard to calibrate hitting someone, as most of us here know. It's even harder if you're fighting them and trying to cuff them... Which leads to the other issue... Cuffing a resisting subject is difficult, and it's hard to get them properly adjusted. Especially as you're struggling. If a guy's not cooperative, I'm not going to even try to ease up the cuffs, either, unless I see his hand turning purple or something like that which screams for attention and adjustment. Then, even properly adjusted cuffs are not comfortable and they are a little tight. Especially on people with bigger wrists or broader shoulders... I'm fairly flexible, but also pretty broad and big in the shoulders. Standard cuffs WILL mean that my wrists are pulled uncomfortably far behind my back, and I'll end up straining against them a bit.

I do agree with something in the article, though. I think that medics and ER staff should have clear, easy channels to report suspected cases of excessive force. For many reasons, the victims of excessive force may not report it; the medical staff who treat them should be able to do so. Because I WANT the real problems assessed. One agency I know of automatically investigates any officer who has more than 3 uses of force in a certain period; that's too much because in one district -- you can do that without trying in one night, but in another district, you might not have 3 uses of force, in even the most technical definition, in a year. Should reporting for medical staff be mandatory? I don't think so. The definition and assessment can be very subjective and very tricky; it's often not as clear as potential domestic abuse. And there are other checks in the system.

 

[Archangel M]

Where the hell do the docs come off judging what force was necessary? How do they know what happened and what was justified or not? Who are they getting the story from? The ARRESTEE of course.

Oh..Im sure that a number of cases ARE excessive force cases...have to be, the odds would demand it. BUT, that doesnt change the fact that an ER doc is in no position to KNOW any facts or evidence regarding whatr happened at the time of arrest. All he can professionaly attest to is that a subjects injuries support or fail to support his claims of excessive force. THATS IT.

I love it when you are bringing in a BG in cuffs because it took 5 cops to get him into them and the docs give us a hard time about the "poor guy" being in cuffs..then they are on too tight. They should stick to what they know best...

If we killed half as many people as doctors did every year there would be a media frenzy.

 

[Cryozombie]

If we killed half as many people as doctors did every year there would be a media frenzy.

LOL. Now THAT'S the truth.

 

[shesulsa]

ER personnel can't possibly know what the situation was like. They should shut their mouths and tend to their own burning bacon.

 

[theletch1]

ER personnel can't possibly know what the situation was like. They should shut their mouths and tend to their own burning bacon.

Very true BUT ER personnel are looking at the individual from a 180 degree aspect. For the cop every one they cuff is a potential criminal, for the ER folks every one they treat is a victim. It's a different mindset. Just as many cops don't (and IMO shouldn't) think about what led Johnny to rob a liquor store the ER folks don't (and again shouldn't) think about what led Johhny to come into the ER with a dislocated shoulder and pavement scrapes on his face. The "what caused this" isn't truly part of the job. The "what do I have to do to fix this" is. Mitigating circumstances are something for lawyers and judges to deal with. Cops and ER personnel must deal in the here and now at a speed that would have most of our heads spinning.

 

[MJS]

There's been a bit of an ongoing disagreement between some paramedics, some ER docs, and cops. We bring someone in cuffed, and they want them uncuffed. We fight a guy on the street, and the medical side of things sees a guy who's been thumped. They don't see the struggle that led up to the thumping...

And this is 99% of the problem right there. The public as well as the reporters usually form their opinion off of some half baked crappy quality cell phone camera video or some clown with a camcorder filming stuff. Its rare that the WHOLE event is captured.

So people see a guy on the ground, cuffed, with 8 cops standing over him and think, "Ohh this poor man. " when little do they know, this 'poor man' just drove like an *** for 7miles, rammed cop cars, got out and ran, was caught, but resisted, etc.

 

[sgtmac_46]

In this thread on the MartialTalk.Com > Arts > General Self Defense > Law Enforcement forum, a discussion about a particular technique took a left turn and became a discussion about police conduct.

It was claimed in the discussion by Drac that:



Which I personally find somewhat ludicrous. I would not disagree if he claimed that "some" injuries, or even if he stated that "most" injuries. After all, the majority of this nation's LEO's are professional folks trying to do a good job. But it is also the case that police misconduct, and police brutality, are a problem in our cities police forces.

A bit later in the discussion, this point was made:



I don't disagree that the reality of the task of policing in the inner cities is that it is more stressful, and there are more "bad guys" around (or at least folks who really dislike the police), but does that excuse mistreatment?

There are real problems that exist between inner city communities and the police, systemic mistrust on both sides renders interactions in investigations and neighborhood policing efforts difficult at best. Does police violence make those relationships better or worse? And, does that serve to help or harm the police and community as a whole? Is it blown out of proportion, or does the rate of events, how ever few they may be when taken with all interactions over the nation as a whole, present real issues for how the police and community interact at local levels?

Does a person's social-economic background effect how they view the police because of past interactions or events? What can be done to change that if it is considered a problem. If it is not considered a problem, why not?

Well, lets just throw it out in the open....the fact that a police officer in this country is 6 times more likely to be murdered by a black male, black males are 5 times more likely to be shot by a police officer.......those numbers correspond......if black men are 6 times more likely to kill or try to kill a police officer, they are 6 times more likely to be in situations justifying a police officer shooting them in the process.


But it's not just police officers and how they view police......a black man is 6 times more likely to be murdered IN GENERAL than any other race or gender......ALMOST ALWAYS by another black man!

The problem in some communities isn't just with the police.......the police are a convenient scape-goat for a communities problems, because they wear a uniform, and are often of a different race.....but the problems in those communities exist independently of the police, who are actually attempting to solve many of those problems.

 

[sgtmac_46]

And this is 99% of the problem right there. The public as well as the reporters usually form their opinion off of some half baked crappy quality cell phone camera video or some clown with a camcorder filming stuff. Its rare that the WHOLE event is captured.

So people see a guy on the ground, cuffed, with 8 cops standing over him and think, "Ohh this poor man. " when little do they know, this 'poor man' just drove like an *** for 7miles, rammed cop cars, got out and ran, was caught, but resisted, etc.

And add to that a very unrealistic expectation of what it takes to bring a combative person under 'control' and what qualifies as 'control'.

Just because a man is in handcuffs, doesn't mean he can't hurt someone, just for one example.....yet the public is convinced that handcuffs mean the suspect is ABSOLUTELY under control.... http://www.blacktigertacticalsystem.com/pop/danger_handcuff_susp_v.html

 

[sgtmac_46]

If we killed half as many people as doctors did every year there would be a media frenzy.

If we killed one FRACTION as many people as killed by medical negligence, there'd be a REVOLUTION!

By some accepted MEDICAL INDUSTRY estimates......medical malpractice may kill as many as 225,000 PEOPLE A YEAR! http://www.lifenatural.com/medical-malpractice.htm

And that's from the Journal of the American Medical Association! If JAMA acknowledges 225,000 I wonder what the number COULD be as high as?!

 

[Drac]

Did I tell you about the guy that hit his girlfriend with his auto??? Then refused to pull over when despite 3 marked units behind him with light and sirens (I assisted the local boys)..He would not exit the vehicle cause he was talking to his homie on his cell phone ...

 

[sgtmac_46]

Did I tell you about the guy that hit his girlfriend with his auto??? Then refused to pull over when despite 3 marked units behind him with light and sirens (I assisted the local boys)..He would not exit the vehicle cause he was talking to his homie on his cell phone ...

'You get my lawyer, man! You get my lawyer and tell him these pigs are violating my rights!'

 

[Carol]

Why do I have the feeling that motard has heard the phrase "Will the defendant please rise..." before?

 

[Drac]

'You get my lawyer, man! You get my lawyer and tell him these pigs are violating my rights!'

Yeah that was about it..we had to take the cell phone outta his hand to effect the arrest and he resisted...Now despite the opinions of some of the motards here once the cuffs were on the physical efforts stopped...When asked why he did it (after he was mirandized) he said "The Hoe dissed me"..

 

[shesulsa]

Yeah that was about it..we had to take the cell phone outta his hand to effect the arrest and he resisted...Now despite the opinions of some of the motards here once the cuffs were on the physical efforts stopped...When asked why he did it (after he was mirandized) he said "The Hoe dissed me"..

Wow.