Good Cop / Bad Cop

[Archangel M]

Good point JKS..when people hear cops say that not showing ID makes cops suspcious they seem to go off on the assumption that we then trample their rights, when in fact it is usually like in your example. Yeah that guy in the neighborhood would have sparked my suspicions too and his refusal to show ID even more so. Id be as suspcious as hell as he walked off when I had nothing on him. Theres a difference between being suspicious and being able to do anything about it. ANY GOOD COP would be "suspicious" in those situations.

PS-Did you ask to look in his bag?

 

[jks9199]

Good point JKS..when people hear cops say that not showing ID makes cops suspcious they seem to go off on the assumption that we then trample their rights, when in fact it is usually like in your example. Yeah that guy in the neighborhood would have sparked my suspicions too and his refusal to show ID even more so. Id be as suspcious as hell as he walked off when I had nothing on him. Theres a difference between being suspicious and being able to do anything about it. ANY GOOD COP would be "suspicious" in those situations.

PS-Did you ask to look in his bag?

Of course I wanted to... and no, he wouldn't let me. Again, not enough to detain him or hold the bag... Sucked, too... because I know he had something in that damn tube. And I doubt it was a poster...

Just recalled another example that might be illuminating...

I stopped a car one night. "Legalize drugs", "Stop the drug war", etc. bumper stickers. Driver was early 20s. Tags from Colorado or California, as I recall. Stopped him for minor traffic stupidity... For some reason, I felt that searching his car just might be worthwile. I issued him the ticket or warning, whatever I was gonna do, and asked if he'd stay for a minute. He voluntarily stayed... and he claimed he didn't have anything in the car. Don't know for sure, because he wouldn't consent to the search. He "just believed" in legalization... And, after chatting for a couple minutes -- he got sent on his way.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Now I do not want to honk anyone off.. But WHY is such a big flippin problem to show your ID if an officer asks for it???? If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about...Officers remember those that comply with a simple request as we meet so few..My being polite saved my butt many times before I became a cop....

In despotic nations, failure to have proper papers ended badly for people. The US is supposed to be "Land of the Free". Free means I don't need "Papers".

If you stop me as I'm walking out of a store, or walking down the street, or sitting on my porch, honestly, what -legal right- do you have to demand my papers?
Note, I said papers. Not ask me my name, address and whatnot.

What if I either don't have any 'papers', or don't have them with me? I don't carry my wallet when I'm cutting the grass or shoveling my driveway. Should I, just incase a curious cop needs to see them?

The law says what it says to protect our freedoms. Failure to require law enforcement and government to comply with the law, results in abuse, and eventually, new laws legalizing those abuses.

Now, if I were approached, I would weigh out the risks of complying with the resultant theft of 3-5 hours of my time, and risk of legal expense, and probably show my ID, if I had it.

But if I don't..... what do you do?

Mind you, all of the above is based on my innocence, not protecting guilt. It also assumes I'm not in a position (ie driving a car) where I must have those 'papers'.

If I was on my porch, said my ID was inside, do you allow me to go in and get it, or is that not ok? Does me saying it's inside now suddenly authorize you to enter the house? (I'd like to know...I might dust more often then. LOL)

Now, another question.
I have photo ID. I give you my name, and address. Can't you pull it up on that car-pc?

 

[Archangel M]

No one saying you "have to" Bob. Its not illegal for me to ask either. The issue for most cops is that most people do indeed have "papers" on them. "Most" people refuse to show it either because they want to be *******s or because they are wanted. A simple "do I have to?" if you just dont want to will get a "no" from me if I dont have a legal reason to demmand it.

If you have a license, ever had a ticket or ever been arrested I can confirm your ID with your name and DOB. Unless you are really good at remembering someone elses personal info.

In this job its always good to know who you are dealing with. If I can get an ID without a problem Ill take it.

 

[jks9199]

In despotic nations, failure to have proper papers ended badly for people. The US is supposed to be "Land of the Free". Free means I don't need "Papers".

If you stop me as I'm walking out of a store, or walking down the street, or sitting on my porch, honestly, what -legal right- do you have to demand my papers?
Note, I said papers. Not ask me my name, address and whatnot.

Depends in a significant part on state law. In general, if there's no reasonable suspicion of criminal act -- None. At least for now...

What if I either don't have any 'papers', or don't have them with me? I don't carry my wallet when I'm cutting the grass or shoveling my driveway. Should I, just incase a curious cop needs to see them?

The law says what it says to protect our freedoms. Failure to require law enforcement and government to comply with the law, results in abuse, and eventually, new laws legalizing those abuses.

Now, if I were approached, I would weigh out the risks of complying with the resultant theft of 3-5 hours of my time, and risk of legal expense, and probably show my ID, if I had it.

But if I don't..... what do you do?

Mind you, all of the above is based on my innocence, not protecting guilt. It also assumes I'm not in a position (ie driving a car) where I must have those 'papers'.

If I was on my porch, said my ID was inside, do you allow me to go in and get it, or is that not ok? Does me saying it's inside now suddenly authorize you to enter the house? (I'd like to know...I might dust more often then. LOL)

Depends on the circumstances, but generally, no that doesn't let me enter your house without a warrant or your permission. In fact, I'm not going to let you go into that house if I'm dealing with you; I don't know what you've got in the house.

(There is a narrow exception that allows a protective sweep of a nearby house to ensure that police aren't attacked from the house. It's narrow -- but it does exist.)

Now, another question.
I have photo ID. I give you my name, and address. Can't you pull it up on that car-pc?

Not like you see in TV, where the cops get pictures and all sorts of current info on the person. Not all states have put the photographs in the computers in a way that cops can get them, and not every cop has a computer that's capable of doing any of that, anyway! We can run your information, and get whatever physical description DMV has -- which can be worse than useless. Virginia, for example, doesn't report race as part of the DMV description; it's not like race is some sort of physical descriptor that might help identify someone or anything...

 

[Drac]

In despotic nations, failure to have proper papers ended badly for people. The US is supposed to be "Land of the Free". Free means I don't need "Papers".

If you stop me as I'm walking out of a store, or walking down the street, or sitting on my porch, honestly, what -legal right- do you have to demand my papers?
Note, I said papers. Not ask me my name, address and whatnot.

What if I either don't have any 'papers', or don't have them with me? I don't carry my wallet when I'm cutting the grass or shoveling my driveway. Should I, just incase a curious cop needs to see them?

The law says what it says to protect our freedoms. Failure to require law enforcement and government to comply with the law, results in abuse, and eventually, new laws legalizing those abuses.

Now, if I were approached, I would weigh out the risks of complying with the resultant theft of 3-5 hours of my time, and risk of legal expense, and probably show my ID, if I had it.

But if I don't..... what do you do?

Mind you, all of the above is based on my innocence, not protecting guilt. It also assumes I'm not in a position (ie driving a car) where I must have those 'papers'.

If I was on my porch, said my ID was inside, do you allow me to go in and get it, or is that not ok? Does me saying it's inside now suddenly authorize you to enter the house? (I'd like to know...I might dust more often then. LOL)

I give up....

Now, another question.
I have photo ID. I give you my name, and address. Can't you pull it up on that car-pc?

Depends on the program...One dept I work for has that capability, the other doesn't....

 

[Bob Hubbard]

No one saying you "have to" Bob. It not illegal for me to ask either. The issue for most cops is that most people do indeed have "papers" on them. "Most" people refuse to show it either because they want to be *******s or because they are wanted. A simple "do I have to?" if you just dont want to will get a "no" from me if I dont have a legal reason to demmand it.

If you have a license, ever had a ticket or ever been arrested I can confirm your ID with your name and DOB.

In this job its always good to know who you are dealing with. If I can get an ID without a problem Ill take it.

I'll ask next time it happens. At my current rate, that'll be oh, 2016?

Here's my problem.
You are looking, for whatever reason.
You ask me for ID, in order to eliminate me from suspicion.
But I'm innocent until proven guilty.
In this case, I'm suspicious until I'm not.
Kinda bugs me.Make sense where I'm coming from here? Not trying to drive people nuts, or cause poor Drac to jump on a stake.

Depends in a significant part on state law. In general, if there's no reasonable suspicion of criminal act -- None. At least for now...

But is my not having those now suddenly "suspicious" and "probable"?

Depends on the circumstances, but generally, no that doesn't let me enter your house without a warrant or your permission. In fact, I'm not going to let you go into that house if I'm dealing with you; I don't know what you've got in the house.

You mean it's not on my secret government file about how I scared the crap outta 2 FBI agents with my collection of wall hangers, and 3 fierce attack cats, who shed on them and gave the one the sniffles?

Seriously though, it's a good idea, but if I don't have my papers, and you need those papers, my options now seem limited to suspicious and more suspicious, neither of which will allow for a quick resolution to our problem.

Baring me giving my name, address, etc, what else can I offer, besides a state or federal issued ID? I always have my business cards, you could google me and find my face on 7/10 of the first 10 sites.

Or, is my only option a ride down town, a long boring wait while we wait for someone who can verify I am who I say I am to show up?

Not like you see in TV, where the cops get pictures and all sorts of current info on the person. Not all states have put the photographs in the computers in a way that cops can get them, and not every cop has a computer that's capable of doing any of that, anyway! We can run your information, and get whatever physical description DMV has -- which can be worse than useless. Virginia, for example, doesn't report race as part of the DMV description; it's not like race is some sort of physical descriptor that might help identify someone or anything...

Well, that would be racist, don't you know, and only discrimination against whites is legal.
--Regents of the University of California vs Bakke
--United Steelworkers of America v. Weber
(These are in something I'm working on for later on)

 

[Archangel M]

Not child safe but f'in funny!

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/845973660.html

 

[Drac]

Not child safe but f'in funny!

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/845973660.html

OMG...Too-flippin-funny...I had tears on that one...

 

[Archangel M]

NYPD man...I know a couple those guys, they can be some of the funniest guys you will ever meet.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me ask another question.

I'm driving. I see flashing lights behind me.
Am I obligated to stop?

Before you answer, let me clarify the picture.

The car behind me is a oh, blue Ford Taurus.
The headlights are alternately flashing.
Theres a blue & red flasher in the center of the grill.
The driver is wearing sunglasses, and that's all I can make out.
The car is not marked, and there are no other visible lights, no gumball machine on the top, etc..

Is that a cop car?

Because the hardware to convert a civilian taurus to do that is under $200.
(I just checked Ebay, it's $30 to make my headlights alternate flash)

Let me expand this to a more important direction.
How can I be sure, that the person I'm dealing with is in fact a legit law enforcement officer? Obviously, 12 cars behind me all flashing with 30 uniforms in 1 place, kinda says "these are cops" but what about that lone officer in the unmarked car?

Can I ask that officer for -his- ID? And, if I do so, will that "red flag" me?

(Yes, I'm being annoying here and I apologize for that. But bear with me a bit eh?)

I want to mke my life, and your life as easy as possible. I want to minimize the unplesantness, do my best to aid you in your task, keep myself outta harm, avoid misunderstandings, and keep out of trouble. What I'm looking for here is how/how far/etc, without simply rolling over and submitting.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Not child safe but f'in funny!

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/845973660.html

That was excellent!

 

[Archangel M]

To your above question, there is no absolute answer. An undercover officer here wont be conducting a car stop unless its really important and even then a marked car would be close behind. Most unmarked cars look like "police cars" when you look close..radar units, push-bars etc.

I guess I would say. If you think it may be a cop...stop but request a uniform if you are suspicious. If you really dont think its a cop, eventually a marked car will show up if you keep on going.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Buffalo and some of the surrounding locals use unmarked cars for traffic stops. I've heard reference (haven't verified) to a story about some civilian using a unmarked car with the "cop lights" and a "Party City" uniform to pull over women, and assault them. Again, heard, not confirmed, though I think it was in Florida some years back. I've bought enough surplus gear myself to know it's easy to get uniform bits and do a reasonable mock up. I know, impersonation is illegal, but criminals don't care.

Other than the "gear" cop cars have, any other suggestions to confirm legitimacy? General appearence, amount of "beat up", etc?

Also, if I were stopped and requested confirmation, how pissed off would that make someone? I am questioning his authority right?

 

[jks9199]

Let me ask another question.

I'm driving. I see flashing lights behind me.
Am I obligated to stop?

Before you answer, let me clarify the picture.

The car behind me is a oh, blue Ford Taurus.
The headlights are alternately flashing.
Theres a blue & red flasher in the center of the grill.
The driver is wearing sunglasses, and that's all I can make out.
The car is not marked, and there are no other visible lights, no gumball machine on the top, etc..

Is that a cop car?

Because the hardware to convert a civilian taurus to do that is under $200.
(I just checked Ebay, it's $30 to make my headlights alternate flash)

Let me expand this to a more important direction.
How can I be sure, that the person I'm dealing with is in fact a legit law enforcement officer? Obviously, 12 cars behind me all flashing with 30 uniforms in 1 place, kinda says "these are cops" but what about that lone officer in the unmarked car?

Can I ask that officer for -his- ID? And, if I do so, will that "red flag" me?

(Yes, I'm being annoying here and I apologize for that. But bear with me a bit eh?)

I want to mke my life, and your life as easy as possible. I want to minimize the unplesantness, do my best to aid you in your task, keep myself outta harm, avoid misunderstandings, and keep out of trouble. What I'm looking for here is how/how far/etc, without simply rolling over and submitting.

Tough question, because the answer is YES... but only if it's really a cop. (Note: consult your state traffic code for the specifics on colors of flashing lights and what they mean.)

Police impersonators are a problem, because there are legitimate unmarked cars of various body styles used for traffic enforcement and to make stops. And then there's things like tactical stops of a car in a takedown...

What I advise people is that the traffic code requires that they yield to the approach of an emergency vehicle. And it's the smart thing to do (after all; it could be that it's simply someone like a volly firefighter or a cop trying to get somewhere else!) -- but that doesn't mean you have to stop in a spot that you feel is particularly unsafe.

Pull over as soon as you may reasonably do so. At night, turn on your dome light. If you have any questions about the identity of the officer, roll the window down enough to speak -- and that's it. You can certainly ask for their ID. Especially if they're in plainclothes, ask them to get a uniformed officer. Ask to move to a better lit area or more populous area. (Note... if you're in an area that's got so many lights and business that you don't need your headlights... you probably shouldn't ask to move somewhere else. But if you're in the middle of nowhere, on some remote highway... yeah, you might want to.) You can call 911 or the local emergency number if you've got a cell phone, too. Realize that you may not get that officer's dispatch; if you call 911 where I work, you won't go directly to my dispatcher. You'll go to the county call center that dispatches all the fire & rescue stuff. They'll redirect your call. But someone there should be able to determine that you are really out with a cop.

And -- since impersonators are actually fairly rare, the odds are that you'll be given reasonable proof that the person stopping you is really a cop. At which point, continue to be polite and work with them.

In other words... Yes, you've got to stop. But if you have any concerns, you have ways to confirm the identity, starting with asking for ID, and running through calling 911. Not stopping and simply driving till you get a pursuit to convince you that they really are cops is NOT a good idea! (Unless you want to be pulled out the vent window of your car over some stupid traffic offense...)

Whether asking for identification, etc. would piss a real cop off depends. Cops are human; if you're too picky, it'll piss 'em off. But if you stopped reasonably promptly, and you were reasonable about asking for proof and what you accept... you'll probably be fine. They may call you an ******* under their breath, but most cops who regularly operate unmarked cars and especially those who do sometimes conduct traffic stops in plainclothes or non-uniformed capacities do know and understand the concerns.

 

[Archangel M]

I'll ask next time it happens. At my current rate, that'll be oh, 2016?

Here's my problem.
You are looking, for whatever reason.
You ask me for ID, in order to eliminate me from suspicion.
But I'm innocent until proven guilty.
In this case, I'm suspicious until I'm not.
Kinda bugs me.Make sense where I'm coming from here? Not trying to drive people nuts, or cause poor Drac to jump on a stake.

Being "suspicious" and being arrested are two vastly different things. Being arrested and being "found guilty" are two different things. I dont need proof of guilt on the street just probable cause.

If you ID yourself I can move on to finding the real BG and people giving me grief while Im just trying to do my job "bugs me". So show your ID or not.In the end, (unless there is something else going on) all you are doing is wasting our collective time if you are simply refusing to ID "on principles".

In the end you go on your merry way if I have nothing else "on you".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I don't think I'd fit through that vent window.

 

[Archangel M]

To your above question, there is no absolute answer. An undercover officer here wont be conducting a car stop unless its really important and even then a marked car would be close behind. Most unmarked cars look like "police cars" when you look close..radar units, push-bars etc.

I guess I would say. If you think it may be a cop...stop but request a uniform if you are suspicious. If you really dont think its a cop, eventually a marked car will show up if you keep on going.

Let me add that I was being sarcastic on that last part lest someone take that as advice to get into a vehicle pursuit.

We had a guy in a beat up crown vic with spotlights and wig wags pulling people over. He wore a security guard uniform (was actually a guard somewhere) fortunately he thought he was"doing a good deed" by stopping people he thought were in violation of the traffic law and nothing more serious. Needless to say he was shown his error in thinking.

People should also familiarize themselves with their local LE vehicles and uniforms. That guy looked nothing like any local cop but people are blissfully unaware of finer details that they probably should be aware of.

 

[Carol]

When I first started my night job and had discussions about safety with some other folks here....a few folks told me to not pull over if an unmarked was trying to pull me over, and to first call 911 to confirm that what was behind me was the real deal.

I soon found out that.....when you have a full rack of beacons in your rear view...and its dark....you can't tell whether what is behind you is marked or unmarked. I've also learned that...the stretch of road that I've traveled is patrolled heavily by the real LEOs looking for drunks that have been in the taverns till closing time.

That being said, we do have some atypical unmarkeds here and in northern MA (SUV's, etc)

Archangel/JKS...what do you guys think about verifying with 911 if you have your suspicions about whose beacons are behind you?

 

[Archangel M]

If you dont pull over when the lights go on and decide to drive on for 3-5 more minutes while you verify with 911 you are not going to enjoy the results.