Good arts for getting to your gun

[hoshin1600]

This was one of the really cool parts about getting the opportunity to drill these situations with simunition guns. You get the feeling of shooting a real gun and seeing where you hit, with both sides moving.

In the drill we did, the bad guy approached with a knife attack while your gun was concealed. We parried, blocked the knife attack, got off line, breaking their balance and then shoved them. After the shove, you had plenty of time to draw and step back. When they recovered their balance and started to turn back, it froze the bad guy momentarily. And it was predictable where he was going to be.

I found that this exercise validated the way I practice shooting at the range. I was easily able to to hit the bad guy where I wanted, one handed or two handed, depending on the distance I achieved during the first bit. (this was done point shooting, no one used or attempted to use the sights... most of the time, the gun was still kept close to the body, as you had to shoot fast)

I highly recommend that you try out these drills with simunition guns if you ever get the chance. We had two experienced SWAT team leaders teaching us and running the drills. This was the best gun disarming / situational shoot course I have taken. I learned a lot from it. If you can't get simunition guns, use airsoft guns. Its not quite the same... but closer than dummy pistols or water guns or nerf guns...

You could also use paint ball guns. They can hurt like heck. Not as much as a sim round but still enough to get the adrenaline going. They are not accurate but at that close of a distance I wouldn't think it would matter much.

 

[dvcochran]

It has been several years since I was in law enforcement so I am familiar with the 21' rule. I also know it is applicable maybe 1/2 of the time. Seldom could you apply it in domestics or bar checks, at least at the start. That said, I do not think it is a sound strategy to think you will be able to draw your gun AFTER physical contact that you do not dictate. I have seen way too many unexpected scenarios to believe counter-response always works. Yes, I am talking about situational awareness. I strongly believe a debilitating first strike or bind/lock is much safer. I am a long time up fighter with wrestling experience from my high school and college days and will tell you unconditionally I am much more comfortable up fighting and/or at range. If they can touch you they CAN hurt you. I realize this does not answer you question but if you are aware enough to think you need to be in the 21' rule, you are aware enough to plan a strong first move. If you do then you have the option of the 2nd, 3rd, etc... move.

 

[Mountie]

Interesting topic. Even if you don't like the trainers your service has, definitely track one down and ask. Whatever you think of the training provided (and I think we need a lot more) the instructors I've worked with have always been street-savvy and dedicated and will go through whatever scenarios or situations you've been thinking about. If you ever have to defend a situation like this in court, the answer should be "I followed my training" not "I did what the guys on the internet told me to".

Now I'll completely undermine that by adding my 2 cents. First, the people who have said 'situational awareness' have it right. I've been fortunate in the few times I've had to defend from a knife in close quarters because I saw the reach and reacted before the knife came out. Doing a good thing now is better than the perfect move later, and seeing the reach and using the space/environment to your advantage will trump any style of MA.

Second, be wary of saying "21' rule." They've found that to be generous, as it does not take into account adrenaline reducing fine motor skills, such as drawing your firearm, and it also does not take into account the fact that putting a round into someone is not an 'off' switch. They keep going, unless they receive a gross motor injury. 28' is closer, but even then it's not a rule just a starting point. Too many lawyers are waiting to jump the fact that their client was 22' away and therefore no threat according to the officer. Get a friend and drill it. It's worth the investment in a training gun to practice stuff like this.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting topic. Even if you don't like the trainers your service has, definitely track one down and ask. Whatever you think of the training provided (and I think we need a lot more) the instructors I've worked with have always been street-savvy and dedicated and will go through whatever scenarios or situations you've been thinking about. If you ever have to defend a situation like this in court, the answer should be "I followed my training" not "I did what the guys on the internet told me to".

Now I'll completely undermine that by adding my 2 cents. First, the people who have said 'situational awareness' have it right. I've been fortunate in the few times I've had to defend from a knife in close quarters because I saw the reach and reacted before the knife came out. Doing a good thing now is better than the perfect move later, and seeing the reach and using the space/environment to your advantage will trump any style of MA.

Second, be wary of saying "21' rule." They've found that to be generous, as it does not take into account adrenaline reducing fine motor skills, such as drawing your firearm, and it also does not take into account the fact that putting a round into someone is not an 'off' switch. They keep going, unless they receive a gross motor injury. 28' is closer, but even then it's not a rule just a starting point. Too many lawyers are waiting to jump the fact that their client was 22' away and therefore no threat according to the officer. Get a friend and drill it. It's worth the investment in a training gun to practice stuff like this.

That is a fair point. Knowing your own distance that you can shoot a guy from. And knowing it instinctively would be handier than assuming you are a21 foot guy and then hoping you know what 21feet actually looks like.

 

[CB Jones]

They've found that to be generous, as it does not take into account adrenaline reducing fine motor skills,

Agree.

We do a lot of 1 on 1 gunfights and Close Quarter Gun Battles with simmunitions. Its fun watching the difference between guys drawing on the firing line shooting targets and when they are put under stress with someone shooting back while also trying to move, reload, and clear malfunctions.

and it also does not take into account the fact that putting a round into someone is not an 'off' switch. They keep going, unless they receive a gross motor injury.

Yeah the first week of our Academy they make cadets watch the Trooper Coates shooting..pretty eye opening for a young cadet....but a good example that gunshots in reality don't have the same affect as they do in the movies.

Note: For those not familiar with the Trooper Coates shooting....Coates was a South Carolina State Trooper who was involved in a lethal force confrontation. He fired six .357 magnum rounds into the bad guys torso...as Coates turned to retreat back to his car the attacker fired one round from his .22 derringer...the bullet struck Coates in the armpit and traveled into his heart killing him. The bad guy survived the 6 rounds to the torso.

 

[Mountie]

Agree.

We do a lot of 1 on 1 gunfights and Close Quarter Gun Battles with simmunitions. Its fun watching the difference between guys drawing on the firing line shooting targets and when they are put under stress with someone shooting back while also trying to move, reload, and clear malfunctions.

People don't practice this stuff enough. Start of your shift, holster your unloaded weapon and draw 5-10 times. End of your shift, unload your gun, holster your unloaded weapon and draw 5-10 times. If it's not muscle memory, you're more likely to screw up under pressure.

 

[CB Jones]

People don't practice this stuff enough. Start of your shift, holster your unloaded weapon and draw 5-10 times. End of your shift, unload your gun, holster your unloaded weapon and draw 5-10 times. If it's not muscle memory, you're more likely to screw up under pressure.

One of the the things our firearms instructors advocate is aerobic and anaerobic exercises to get the heart rate and blood pressure up then work on drawing and dry firing to try and mimic some of the effects.

 

[GreatUniter]

Basically, every art that teachers real combat is good for you.

 

[Balrog]

Does anybody really shoot like they are supposed to though? When you see a lot of defensive shootings the shooter is often pretty mobile.

You see a lot of guys dodging.

Under stress, everything changes. All you can do is try to stick to your training as best as possible and get shots on target as quickly as possible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry I just don't have faith in industry training. Not for these sorts of subjects.

Industry training is about being compliant to be able to work. It is not for learning things.

That kind of blanket generalization is rarely entirely accurate.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The training people choose to do. From the trainers who are legitimately qualified to teach.

And with results based on evidence.

The first doesn’t legitimize anything. And there’s no reason the other two can’t exist in “industry training “.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well it would be pretty simple. You get some plastic guns, some plastic knives and some sparring gear. You then create a situation to defend from and then keep working in that environment untill you have a method that works.

So it doesn't matter if the instructor is consultant to the king of mars. Can I hold him down and beat him to death before he can get free and shoot me. Can he do this to a quality grappler, a striker, a gun guy.

If they get out reliably and stand up make space and draw their gun. Then that is a viable method. If they create space draw their gun and manage to not shoot themselves in the foot. That is a viable method.

If they train live dont get out and routinely eat punches or get shot or stabbed a lot. Their method sucks. It is a fight. Train it by fighting.

We remove the rubbish, the appeals to authority and the hypothetical. And train the problem in an honest manner.

Now where do we see this kind of training? Because that is the sort of answers we should be looking for.

Gee. Sounds a lot like situational training. I thought you didn’t like made up attacks.

 

[CB Jones]

A lot of what our instructors teach is based on analyzing actual use of force and lethal force actions of our officers to determine what worked, what didn’t work, what problems the officer experienced and how to correct them.

And then share their analysis with other agencies. That is one thing most L.E. Agencies do well is share info on tactics and training with each other.

 

[lklawson]

Practice your draw from concealment. The faster you can draw from concealment, the less time you have to buy.

The 21 foot rule is for a police officer, meaning gun is on the hip, not concealed. It also requires the officer to stand his ground. If the officer backs up turning (L shape path) that buys him enough time to draw and fire.

If you do not have your gun on your hip, the distance should be a little further... depending on how much longer it takes you to draw. Simple movement, can buy you the time you need from that distance. Closer in is another story.

The current consensus right now is that a very trained and very practiced expert can draw from concealment and put a shot on target in under 1 second, a person who practices regularly should be able to draw from concealment and put a shot on target in around 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds, and the average person with a little training and practice should be able to draw from concealment and put a shot on target in 3 seconds.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Can you show me your method working?

BJJ actually has footage of police officers making their system work in real time.

Personally I probably wouldn't have said a rear naked wasn't the best way to go. But actually video says different.

Police footage is about the only real time footage of people fighting with guns. So if you are going to work on the theory that it is not really the same you have to replace it with something better.

Not with a bunch of empty theory.

Non-LEO self defense civilians have different goals from cops.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[drop bear]

Non-LEO self defense civilians have different goals from cops.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

How does that change the mechanics?

 

[drop bear]

Gee. Sounds a lot like situational training. I thought you didn’t like made up attacks.

I dont like dishonest attacks.

 

[drop bear]

The first doesn’t legitimize anything. And there’s no reason the other two can’t exist in “industry training “.

Training that people attend because they have to tends to be different to training people do because they actually want to aquire a skill.

And yes industry training could be good. It just generally isn't. Became it doesn't have to be.

 

[drop bear]

That kind of blanket generalization is rarely entirely accurate.

Then it can prove its worth based on it results.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I dont like dishonest attacks.

In the past, you've defined those as attacks the person wouldn't actually do. At other times, you've said people should only deliver attacks they have proven they're effective at. This particular scenario requires neither. And it's no more or less dishonest than working against a punch with mechanics different from those taught in class as a proper punch. In both cases, you're replicating an attack that actually happens, and doing that particular attack with the best intent you can manage (appropriate to the drill). Just pointing out to you (as I have before) that you do actually understand the value of scenario training and such - so long as it's not related to arts like Aikido, apparently.