Good arts for getting to your gun

[drop bear]

What does any of that have to do with drawing your gun while wrestling with someone?


Well lets just agree to disagree. I will use the tactics we train at my agency, and you can use the tactics you train at yours. I feel very confident with the tactics that we teach.

Oh you are doing industry training..

Yeah that explains it.

And why so many cops do BJJ.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And I counter with why it is not a good idea to be on the back foot in a fight. Too much risk of you loosing before you have a chance to recover.

If drawing a gun while wrestling wasn't highly dangerous, then I'd agree with your point. But why start out by making it more dangerous for everyone (yourself included), just in case it gets dangerous for you later?

 

[drop bear]

This is actually kinda the point I and others have been making. That's video of the guy with the gun losing it in a struggle. It wasn't loaded, so it wasn't dangerous to him (and also wasn't usable as a gun in the scuffle), so that eliminates some of the possible outcomes, but still...

There are going to be positions where it is safe to draw and positions where it is unsafe. And they would be pretty easily worked out and broken down.

Of course nobody has really bothered to work that out which is why we have the systems we have. Stand up get clear and then think about the gun you had on you the whole time.

Grappling is inherently about creating and denying access.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are going to be positions where it is safe to draw and positions where it is unsafe. And they would be pretty easily worked out and broken down.

Of course nobody has really bothered to work that out which is why we have the systems we have. Stand up get clear and then think about the gun you had on you the whole time.

Grappling is inherently about creating and denying access.

Early in this thread, discussion wasn't entirely about "stand up and get clear" - it was about building time and space to draw. I think that's exactly what you're talking about.

 

[drop bear]

1) Bats do not A.D. and blow your balls off as you try to draw them.

2) The end of a bat can't be pushed into your gut while the trigger is pulled gut shooting you.

3) If dropped it doesn't matter what end of the bat you end up grasping.

4) You can't push the slide of a bat 3 mm back and take it out of battery

5) You can't push a slide 3/4 back and double feed a bat rendering it inoperable

6) If the bad guy takes your bat away and you run away....the bat is not gonna send a projectile through the air at 1300 feet per second and kill you

7) Bats aren't typically worn underneath clothes with retention holsters

Oh. Street/sport.

Yep gun is so different only gun people would know how to wrestle with one.

 

[CB Jones]

Of course nobody has really bothered to work that out which is why we have the systems we have. Stand up get clear and then think about the gun you had on you the whole time.

I disagree.

Our firearms, officer survival, and defensive tactics instructors are full time. Their only jobs are working that stuff out and training. They advocate BJJ and wrestling tactics to gain control of the person or to get back to your feet and separate giving you the distance needed to draw. Drawing while still engaged and without space is a very risky idea.

 

[drop bear]

I disagree.

Our firearms, officer survival, and defensive tactics instructors are full time. Their only jobs are working that stuff out and training. They advocate BJJ and wrestling tactics to gain control of the person or to get back to your feet and separate giving you the distance needed to draw. Drawing while still engaged and without space is a very risky idea.

Sorry I just don't have faith in industry training. Not for these sorts of subjects.

Industry training is about being compliant to be able to work. It is not for learning things.

 

[Anarax]

Bit of backstory on me. When I was around 21-22 I started carrying a firearm for self defense. However, I also read the 21-foot rule, the idea that if someone suddenly pulls a knife and charges you to stab you, if they're within 7 yards they will likely stab you before you can draw your gun and shoot. I read anecdotes on gun forums talking about how someone had to defend themselves with hand-to-hand combat before being able to draw their gun, and that led me to seek martial arts training.

This was about 5 years ago. I did a search back then for martial arts that would fit what I was looking for: an art to quickly avoid or escape an attack to buy myself the couple of seconds needed to draw my firearm. For example, to block a punch and create space, to avoid being stabbed and gain control of the situation, or to break free from a grab at least enough to draw.

Of course, my search for the "perfect" martial art pretty much failed, as in my area we basically had taekwondo and MMA, with a karate school or two sprinkled in. So I found a school with a great master and started taking Taekwondo.

However, just for the sake of my own curiosity, I thought I'd come back to this idea. If your goal is to defend against an attack long enough to draw a firearm, what art(s) would you recommend?

For example, I think the styles of BJJ and wrestling wouldn't be very good, as the goal of those is to be wrapped up, and they don't create much space. Hapkido, which I am learning at my school (although I'm only an orange belt in HKD and I'm a 2nd degree in TKD) I think would be pretty good, because generally we try to stay standing as we take our attacker to the ground.

I think that any art which uses a combination of punches and grabs in stand-up would also be pretty good. Traditional Taekwondo self defense skills combined with modern Taekwondo sparring tactics could be a good amalgam for quick defense and gaining space. At the time I did my research, I read of a more obscure Chinese art called Baguazhang which was based primarily on footwork, and thought that would be a perfect fit, except there was nowhere anywhere near me that taught it.

I'm not going to try to suppose for arts I don't know as much about. I imagine the styles of some arts would be incongruent with the goal of getting to a firearm, whereas others will work very well. So what do you think? What art would fit the style I was looking for back then?

Filipino Martial arts(Kali, Escrima, Arnis) places heavy emphasis on weapon retention. We have multiple law enforcement officers that take our classes. Filipino martial arts is becoming more and more popular with law enforcement. The Filipino martial arts seminars I go to are mostly law enforcement or private security in attendance.

 

[CB Jones]

Sorry I just don't have faith in industry training. Not for these sorts of subjects.

Industry training is about being compliant to be able to work. It is not for learning things.

So whose training do you put faith in then?

 

[drop bear]

So whose training do you put faith in then?

The training people choose to do. From the trainers who are legitimately qualified to teach.

And with results based on evidence.

 

[oftheherd1]

So whose training do you put faith in then?

Sometimes, with some people, it just isn't worth asking.

The training people choose to do. From the trainers who are legitimately qualified to teach.

And with results based on evidence.

 

[Charlemagne]

This may have been shared already and it might not have. Either way, it's a nice example of how an art can be modified in such a way that it allows for effective weapon retention and deployment.

 

[oftheherd1]

Bit of backstory on me. When I was around 21-22 I started carrying a firearm for self defense. However, I also read the 21-foot rule, the idea that if someone suddenly pulls a knife and charges you to stab you, if they're within 7 yards they will likely stab you before you can draw your gun and shoot. I read anecdotes on gun forums talking about how someone had to defend themselves with hand-to-hand combat before being able to draw their gun, and that led me to seek martial arts training.

This was about 5 years ago. I did a search back then for martial arts that would fit what I was looking for: an art to quickly avoid or escape an attack to buy myself the couple of seconds needed to draw my firearm. For example, to block a punch and create space, to avoid being stabbed and gain control of the situation, or to break free from a grab at least enough to draw.

Of course, my search for the "perfect" martial art pretty much failed, as in my area we basically had taekwondo and MMA, with a karate school or two sprinkled in. So I found a school with a great master and started taking Taekwondo.

However, just for the sake of my own curiosity, I thought I'd come back to this idea. If your goal is to defend against an attack long enough to draw a firearm, what art(s) would you recommend?

For example, I think the styles of BJJ and wrestling wouldn't be very good, as the goal of those is to be wrapped up, and they don't create much space. Hapkido, which I am learning at my school (although I'm only an orange belt in HKD and I'm a 2nd degree in TKD) I think would be pretty good, because generally we try to stay standing as we take our attacker to the ground.

I think that any art which uses a combination of punches and grabs in stand-up would also be pretty good. Traditional Taekwondo self defense skills combined with modern Taekwondo sparring tactics could be a good amalgam for quick defense and gaining space. At the time I did my research, I read of a more obscure Chinese art called Baguazhang which was based primarily on footwork, and thought that would be a perfect fit, except there was nowhere anywhere near me that taught it.

I'm not going to try to suppose for arts I don't know as much about. I imagine the styles of some arts would be incongruent with the goal of getting to a firearm, whereas others will work very well. So what do you think? What art would fit the style I was looking for back then?

To get away from nit picking (which I do way too much of myself), the best advice I have seen so far is to try to create distance, either by side-stepping, or backing up quickly while you draw a gun. Even those tactics must be trained for.

But have you talked to your Hapkido instructor? Hapkido has some good knife defenses. I was taught them at the red belt level. Later the Korean Hapkido Association moved them to between 1st and 2nd dan. I don't know if it has been put back in the colored belt level or not.

Preferably, if you are suddenly attacked by a knife wielder, and want to deploy a gun, you want it out before the attacker gets too close to you. If you can't, those knife defenses may be your only hope.

 

[Charlemagne]

This may have been shared already and it might not have. Either way, it's a nice example of how an art can be modified in such a way that it allows for effective weapon retention and deployment.

Things can be blended as well, which can serve to a provide more in the way of options. Most MA systems do weapons as an afterthought, but some deal with them as a large part of their daily training. This video does a nice job of showing how footwork can be used to get yourself offline and alter your range when someone attacks you with a weapon.

 

[Balrog]

Late comer to the thread, but I'll add this. Most, if not all, firearm instructors teach a two hand grip on the weapon. However, a knife attacker closing with you will require you to use your non-dominant hand to guard, block, push, whatever. One should practice single-hand drawing and firing at close range.

 

[drop bear]

Late comer to the thread, but I'll add this. Most, if not all, firearm instructors teach a two hand grip on the weapon. However, a knife attacker closing with you will require you to use your non-dominant hand to guard, block, push, whatever. One should practice single-hand drawing and firing at close range.

Does anybody really shoot like they are supposed to though? When you see a lot of defensive shootings the shooter is often pretty mobile.

You see a lot of guys dodging.

 

[drop bear]

Sometimes, with some people, it just isn't worth asking.

Well it would be pretty simple. You get some plastic guns, some plastic knives and some sparring gear. You then create a situation to defend from and then keep working in that environment untill you have a method that works.

So it doesn't matter if the instructor is consultant to the king of mars. Can I hold him down and beat him to death before he can get free and shoot me. Can he do this to a quality grappler, a striker, a gun guy.

If they get out reliably and stand up make space and draw their gun. Then that is a viable method. If they create space draw their gun and manage to not shoot themselves in the foot. That is a viable method.

If they train live dont get out and routinely eat punches or get shot or stabbed a lot. Their method sucks. It is a fight. Train it by fighting.

We remove the rubbish, the appeals to authority and the hypothetical. And train the problem in an honest manner.

Now where do we see this kind of training? Because that is the sort of answers we should be looking for.

 

[wab25]

Does anybody really shoot like they are supposed to though? When you see a lot of defensive shootings the shooter is often pretty mobile.

You see a lot of guys dodging.

This was one of the really cool parts about getting the opportunity to drill these situations with simunition guns. You get the feeling of shooting a real gun and seeing where you hit, with both sides moving.

In the drill we did, the bad guy approached with a knife attack while your gun was concealed. We parried, blocked the knife attack, got off line, breaking their balance and then shoved them. After the shove, you had plenty of time to draw and step back. When they recovered their balance and started to turn back, it froze the bad guy momentarily. And it was predictable where he was going to be.

I found that this exercise validated the way I practice shooting at the range. I was easily able to to hit the bad guy where I wanted, one handed or two handed, depending on the distance I achieved during the first bit. (this was done point shooting, no one used or attempted to use the sights... most of the time, the gun was still kept close to the body, as you had to shoot fast)

I highly recommend that you try out these drills with simunition guns if you ever get the chance. We had two experienced SWAT team leaders teaching us and running the drills. This was the best gun disarming / situational shoot course I have taken. I learned a lot from it. If you can't get simunition guns, use airsoft guns. Its not quite the same... but closer than dummy pistols or water guns or nerf guns...

 

[drop bear]

This was one of the really cool parts about getting the opportunity to drill these situations with simunition guns. You get the feeling of shooting a real gun and seeing where you hit, with both sides moving.

In the drill we did, the bad guy approached with a knife attack while your gun was concealed. We parried, blocked the knife attack, got off line, breaking their balance and then shoved them. After the shove, you had plenty of time to draw and step back. When they recovered their balance and started to turn back, it froze the bad guy momentarily. And it was predictable where he was going to be.

I found that this exercise validated the way I practice shooting at the range. I was easily able to to hit the bad guy where I wanted, one handed or two handed, depending on the distance I achieved during the first bit. (this was done point shooting, no one used or attempted to use the sights... most of the time, the gun was still kept close to the body, as you had to shoot fast)

I highly recommend that you try out these drills with simunition guns if you ever get the chance. We had two experienced SWAT team leaders teaching us and running the drills. This was the best gun disarming / situational shoot course I have taken. I learned a lot from it. If you can't get simunition guns, use airsoft guns. Its not quite the same... but closer than dummy pistols or water guns or nerf guns...

At the range you are playing at you could use rubber band guns.

 

[dvcochran]

Bit of backstory on me. When I was around 21-22 I started carrying a firearm for self defense. However, I also read the 21-foot rule, the idea that if someone suddenly pulls a knife and charges you to stab you, if they're within 7 yards they will likely stab you before you can draw your gun and shoot. I read anecdotes on gun forums talking about how someone had to defend themselves with hand-to-hand combat before being able to draw their gun, and that led me to seek martial arts training.

This was about 5 years ago. I did a search back then for martial arts that would fit what I was looking for: an art to quickly avoid or escape an attack to buy myself the couple of seconds needed to draw my firearm. For example, to block a punch and create space, to avoid being stabbed and gain control of the situation, or to break free from a grab at least enough to draw.

Of course, my search for the "perfect" martial art pretty much failed, as in my area we basically had taekwondo and MMA, with a karate school or two sprinkled in. So I found a school with a great master and started taking Taekwondo.

However, just for the sake of my own curiosity, I thought I'd come back to this idea. If your goal is to defend against an attack long enough to draw a firearm, what art(s) would you recommend?

For example, I think the styles of BJJ and wrestling wouldn't be very good, as the goal of those is to be wrapped up, and they don't create much space. Hapkido, which I am learning at my school (although I'm only an orange belt in HKD and I'm a 2nd degree in TKD) I think would be pretty good, because generally we try to stay standing as we take our attacker to the ground.

I think that any art which uses a combination of punches and grabs in stand-up would also be pretty good. Traditional Taekwondo self defense skills combined with modern Taekwondo sparring tactics could be a good amalgam for quick defense and gaining space. At the time I did my research, I read of a more obscure Chinese art called Baguazhang which was based primarily on footwork, and thought that would be a perfect fit, except there was nowhere anywhere near me that taught it.

I'm not going to try to suppose for arts I don't know as much about. I imagine the styles of some arts would be incongruent with the goal of getting to a firearm, whereas others will work very well. So what do you think? What art would fit the style I was looking for back then?