Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[BMhadoken]

it is ok to nitpick.. you are correct about vengefulness I would not disagree.. I think I mean some thing else other than retaliation with violence.. I cannot quite catch the word in English I mean.. sorry I know what you are saying though and you have it right thank you Jxx

I think I'm getting what you're saying, at least a little. Women are less aggressive? Less willing to commit to a confrontation? Does that sound about right?

Obviously I can only speak from a western industrialized perspective, but that does seem to be an issue with woman all over, ignoring the more wild-tempered groups. I think a lot of it has to do with the way we've raised females and encouraged them to behave for much of our history. The ideal woman was quiet, submissive, and didn't cause trouble. The last few generations have started to resist that trend in a big way as we push for equal treatment of both sexes, but it still has great influence over the behavior of women.

Betrayed by the Angel

Link to a story describing my meaning. Resisting the urge to fight back, and then not fighting back with nearly enough force and commitment.

 

[K-man]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't kicking someone's knee out, punching them in the face, or stomping their head "violence used against an attacker", and part of self defense training in many MAs?

Not really. What you have stressed is the extreme end of a very small part of self defence. By the time you are doing those things your self defence skills have probably already failed you miserably. But you know that, don't you? It has been stated many times in the past.

 

[Steve]

I have a question for the group at large. Approximately how much time is spent by you with your students teaching them things other than fighting skills? We are talking about pillars of self defense, and the recurring theme seems to be that violence and fighting skills are a very small part of overall self defense. But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really. What you have stressed is the extreme end of a very small part of self defence. By the time you are doing those things your self defence skills have probably already failed you miserably. But you know that, don't you? It has been stated many times in the past.

So in the schools where you teach you're not spending the vast majority of the time learning how to kick, punch, throw, etc?

EDIT: LoL! Wow Steve.

 

[K-man]

If you say so. You obviously know what I teach and you know my take on self defence. I'm out of this discussion until you demonstrate that you actually understand what self defence is.

 

[Tgace]

I have a question for the group at large. Approximately how much time is spent by you with your students teaching them things other than fighting skills? We are talking about pillars of self defense, and the recurring theme seems to be that violence and fighting skills are a very small part of overall self defense. But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction.

Well...I guess the question would be "who is qualified" to do it?

IMO the "problem" with many MA schools is the "you don't have to go anywhere but here to get what you need" approach. IMO you either bring in "topic experts", send students for "graduate work" somewhere else or YOU (the instructor) need to get qualified training in what you want to teach others.

 

[elder999]

I have a question for the group at large. Approximately how much time is spent by you with your students teaching them things other than fighting skills? We are talking about pillars of self defense, and the recurring theme seems to be that violence and fighting skills are a very small part of overall self defense. But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction.

The bulk of our time is spent with developing fighting skills. Aside from that though, there's a fair amount of discussion and instruction on things like cultural differences, psychological cues, and body language. We also do some exercises in observation, tracking and stalking to develop situational awareness.There's also some role-play and psychodrama: simulated confrontations.....we also work on verbal de-escalation, as well as the legal side of things.

There's more to it than just fighting skills, and there's often a lot more to it before fighting skills are called for-navigating that, though, is not something everyone gets trained for......I mean, Renzo Gracie certainly wasn't-there's an example of someone who has spent the bulk of his training on fighting skills, but apparently hasn't learned (or retained? or accepted?) any instruction on how to conduct himself.

Well...I guess the question would be "who is qualified" to do it?
IMO the "problem" with many MA schools is the "you don't have to go anywhere but here to get what you need" approach. IMO you either bring in "topic experts", send students for "graduate work" somewhere else or YOU (the instructor) need to get qualified training in what you want to teach others.

A+!

I'm certainly not the one to get too deep into meditation with, though we do some, it's very specific and directed-for people who want more, I have people I can send them to for more. Likewise a few martial aspects-either because they want or need something I don't have, or can use some polishing from someone better-there's a thread somewhere about students with disabilities-I sent a guy who spent a fair amount of time in a wheelchair (he could stand, just not for very long...) to someone whose newaza teaching was better than mine-he could work with someone who was confined strictly to upper-body strength a little better, and customize things for someone who would likely be in a wheelchair when confronted a little better, I thought.....

 

[Tgace]

the warriors quest the things worth believing in

 

[Buka]

To me - self defense is all about fighting. How to, how not to, how to avoid it, how to triumph, how to survive, escape etc. The only things I teach physically have to do with, IMO, fighting or fitness. I don't teach Kata, because I don't know how. I don't teach Muay Thai, I don't know how. I don't teach boxing skills to competitively box, I teach boxing skills to fight. I teach basic grappling as was taught to me, and although I've competed in it a few times, I wouldn't have the first clue as how to teach it for competition.

But I teach a lot of young people (15-30 years old) so I teach things other than fighting. I find them to be impressionable, and in Karate schools, at least as I know them, they tend to listen to certain instructors. (yes, that can be good or bad) I am very opinionated about teaching and I am not a shy instructor. I teach the kids how to be gentleman and ladies, and sometimes I get a bit preachy. I teach them Martial ettiquette. I teach them what I expect of them. And I like to do that in front of their family. Been doing it long enough so they know exactly where I'm coming from. I teach young women to expect to be treated as ladies, and to not accept any other behavior from any suitor. I teach them to study how "their boyfriend" treats his mom or other membors of his family because he's going to treat you the very same way. I teach them about school and about work, I teach them about the law as I know it. (retired LEO)
By the way....I'm not refering to white belts who just joined up, but to the greater student body as a whole. I teach the young men to be responsible and openly threaten them if they are otherwise (so sue me if you don't like that, I don't care) The skills I teach them concerning battling others come with a price other than tuition. They are welcome to go elsewhere if they don't like that price.

The kids know they can call on me anytime, especially if they get in trouble, I'll come get them no questions asked, provide legal counsel and get them home safely - then rat them out in detail to their folks - and probably kick their asses myself at some point if it's necessary. It doesn't happen often, but it has happened. And what Tgace said is spot on. I love bringing in "topic experts" and have sent a considerable number of students on to other places. I loved bringing in guests to teach my students. Doctors, cops, EMT's (they might be the best), cornermen, chiropractors, knife fighters, professional athletes and even a few criminals. (how to pick a victim or a house to rob) And all manner of what I consider champion fighters. Many times unannounced. (go ahead, skip class - you won't miss anything.)

That's Billy Blanks and Joe Lewis with me. We just taught a beginners class. The kids pictured here didn't even know who they were - but soon found out. Shoulda seen the looks of the advaced class as they strolled in. Never saw people run and change into uniform so God damn fast.

So, yeah, I teach things other than fighting skills. But for the physical aspect of Martial Arts, at least American Karate as I know it - it's all about fighting and the development of character.

 

[Jenna]

@Buka, awesome picture btw and so cool that you were working along with these two! Can I ask please what year this might have been? Thank you Jxx

 

[Jenna]

I think I'm getting what you're saying, at least a little. Women are less aggressive? Less willing to commit to a confrontation? Does that sound about right?

Obviously I can only speak from a western industrialized perspective, but that does seem to be an issue with woman all over, ignoring the more wild-tempered groups. I think a lot of it has to do with the way we've raised females and encouraged them to behave for much of our history. The ideal woman was quiet, submissive, and didn't cause trouble. The last few generations have started to resist that trend in a big way as we push for equal treatment of both sexes, but it still has great influence over the behavior of women.

Betrayed by the Angel

Link to a story describing my meaning. Resisting the urge to fight back, and then not fighting back with nearly enough force and commitment.

Yes you have that as I mean it thank you. And the story is a traumatic event for her to communicate so frankly and openly.. hers is an attitude I have heard also, and not in short measure.. As parents or elders we have much to teach our impressionable young women about valuing their selves and as you and I I believe are both suggesting that an awareness is made that if physical violence is mandated that it is not incompatible with the idea of being and acting as a self-respecting woman.. Thank you for posting this story hers like many womens is one that should be heard and not hidden.. Jxx

 

[BMhadoken]

Yes you have that as I mean it thank you. And the story is a traumatic event for her to communicate so frankly and openly.. hers is an attitude I have heard also, and not in short measure.. As parents or elders we have much to teach our impressionable young women about valuing their selves and as you and I I believe are both suggesting that an awareness is made that if physical violence is mandated that it is not incompatible with the idea of being and acting as a self-respecting woman.. Thank you for posting this story hers like many womens is one that should be heard and not hidden.. Jxx

Yes, As so many others have said it comes down to mindset, and that's what we should be instilling in women today. No fighting system, nor the deadliest weapon, is of any value in the hands of someone who is unwilling to do harm.

 

[drop bear]

I have a question for the group at large. Approximately how much time is spent by you with your students teaching them things other than fighting skills? We are talking about pillars of self defense, and the recurring theme seems to be that violence and fighting skills are a very small part of overall self defense. But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction.

The kids get mabye ten seconds of "don't go around punching dudes"

Everybody else gets told they cant fight outside of the clb

 

[drop bear]

The kids get mabye ten seconds of "don't go around punching dudes"

Everybody else gets told they cant fight outside of the clb

(hit post by accident.)

Outside of the club. Unless they really have to.

But it hasn't been a real problem either.

 

[drop bear]

Well...I guess the question would be "who is qualified" to do it?

IMO the "problem" with many MA schools is the "you don't have to go anywhere but here to get what you need" approach. IMO you either bring in "topic experts", send students for "graduate work" somewhere else or YOU (the instructor) need to get qualified training in what you want to teach others.

Yeah probably the largest degree of making stuff up as you go along you see in a class generally.

 

[MaxRob]

Once again Avoidance and deep awareness plays a huge role ... Get out of there..., it is an essential in self defense to defeflect and regroup in certain situations or just get away as quickly as possible .
When it comes to direct conflict however good your arts are your adversary may if knowledgable if allowed will find ways around you without engaging you until the right moment comes. There are no rules out there.
Improvise any environmental weapon ,or if you have a serious weapon concealed don't be afraid to use it ,and use it as a concealed means to achieve the element of surprise.
If you are in a dangerous living area arm yourself conceal it and be ready to use it if in danger.
Some we win some we loose, and it is better to get away with your life even if you need to run away.
Keeping fit and practicing endurance running is part of self dfence.

 

[aedrasteia]

I have a question for the group at large. Approximately how much time is spent by you with your students teaching them things other than fighting skills? We are talking about pillars of self defense, and the recurring theme seems to be that violence and fighting skills are a very small part of overall self defense. But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction.

"But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction"
From conventional MA-based instructors? sure.

Not from me and most of the reality-based teachers I know (99% women). Erik Kondo is an exception: THE PROGRESSIVE BOUNDARY SETTING SYSTEM

Rory Miller gets the dimensions of mental-emotional-psychological conditioning. But even he, as good as he
is and he is very good, does not address the reality of assaults toward girls/women from people 'inside the circle'.
Chiron Convergence

Less and less focus on techniques. More and more focus on consciously facing (and coping with)
what the women and girls already know: we are/have already been molested, assaulted, harassed, raped
by family and friends/people we know; people who are already part of the 'circle of trust'. Stranger assault obsesses regular MA instructors, occurs sometimes and is the most discussed. But is the least frequent. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread, most MT threads or the classes offered by MAs.

Girls/women bring all their personal experience (and experiences of the girls/women in their families and their friends)
into the class. It dominates everything that happens in the class. Creating an environment in the class where they/we can talk about reality and learn to change what happens in the future is my responsibility.

Girls/women, me and my students have been trained/socialized very very very differently. And especially
in even naming, much less stopping, behavior and intrusion/aggression from people inside the circle.

So I share 27 ways to recognize and interupt/stop/derail/deflect/change intrusive behavior....
Recognizing, Naming, Stopping the targeting and testing aggressors use (seldom involves physical strikes etc, but definitely includes physical skills).

Because it happens (happened) to me too.

 

[drop bear]

"But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction"
From conventional MA-based instructors? sure.

Not from me and most of the reality-based teachers I know (99% women). Erik Kondo is an exception: THE PROGRESSIVE BOUNDARY SETTING SYSTEM

Rory Miller gets the dimensions of mental-emotional-psychological conditioning. But even he, as good as he
is and he is very good, does not address the reality of assaults toward girls/women from people 'inside the circle'.
Chiron Convergence

Less and less focus on techniques. More and more focus on consciously facing (and coping with)
what the women and girls already know: we are/have already been molested, assaulted, harassed, raped
by family and friends/people we know; people who are already part of the 'circle of trust'. Stranger assault obsesses regular MA instructors, occurs sometimes and is the most discussed. But is the least frequent. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread, most MT threads or the classes offered by MAs.

Girls/women bring all their personal experience (and experiences of the girls/women in their families and their friends)
into the class. It dominates everything that happens in the class. Creating an environment in the class where they/we can talk about reality and learn to change what happens in the future is my responsibility.

Girls/women, me and my students have been trained/socialized very very very differently. And especially
in even naming, much less stopping, behavior and intrusion/aggression from people inside the circle.

So I share 27 ways to recognize and interupt/stop/derail/deflect/change intrusive behavior....
Recognizing, Naming, Stopping the targeting and testing aggressors use (seldom involves physical strikes etc, but definitely includes physical skills).

Because it happens (happened) to me too.

I wonder if it is the same methods I use to prevent getting alpha maled at work?

What is the breakdown of that?

 

[Buka]

@Buka, awesome picture btw and so cool that you were working along with these two! Can I ask please what year this might have been? Thank you Jxx[/QUOTE

Sometime in the ninties. The years kind of run together now.

 

[elder999]

Sometime in the ninties. The years kind of run together now.

Billy's geri-curls say more like 1988.....