Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[Jenna]

"But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction"
From conventional MA-based instructors? sure.

Not from me and most of the reality-based teachers I know (99% women). Erik Kondo is an exception: THE PROGRESSIVE BOUNDARY SETTING SYSTEM

Rory Miller gets the dimensions of mental-emotional-psychological conditioning. But even he, as good as he
is and he is very good, does not address the reality of assaults toward girls/women from people 'inside the circle'.
Chiron Convergence

Less and less focus on techniques. More and more focus on consciously facing (and coping with)
what the women and girls already know: we are/have already been molested, assaulted, harassed, raped
by family and friends/people we know; people who are already part of the 'circle of trust'. Stranger assault obsesses regular MA instructors, occurs sometimes and is the most discussed. But is the least frequent. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread, most MT threads or the classes offered by MAs.

Girls/women bring all their personal experience (and experiences of the girls/women in their families and their friends)
into the class. It dominates everything that happens in the class. Creating an environment in the class where they/we can talk about reality and learn to change what happens in the future is my responsibility.

Girls/women, me and my students have been trained/socialized very very very differently. And especially
in even naming, much less stopping, behavior and intrusion/aggression from people inside the circle.

So I share 27 ways to recognize and interupt/stop/derail/deflect/change intrusive behavior....
Recognizing, Naming, Stopping the targeting and testing aggressors use (seldom involves physical strikes etc, but definitely includes physical skills).

Because it happens (happened) to me too.

I am so so sorry to hear this has happened to you x.. the more women I speak with the more the horror of this almost accepted "normality of abuse" become apparent..

I understand how you mean that MA instructors might appear obsessed.. Do you think all of these aspects familial / acquaintance assault and the emotional and societal hurdles needing to be confronted by women for their own defence and protection do you think these ought to be dealt with by MA/SD instructors?

Can I ask please would an all encompassing SD protocol as is being sought here in this thread would that be EQUALLY applicable to any person in any situation from the forum fetishised bar / parking lot assault to the mosre insidious familial horrors that we deal with all of the time? Is such an all-encompassing SD protocol possible?? what do you think?

I am not any bodys instructor and I do not know how to deal with these things comprehensively like this thread is seeking from an MA / SD perspective all I know is that from girls I have assisted post-trauma through their shame and grim tangle of affect and self-view that these abusers have gifted them that if I subsequently recall a disclosure a part of me cannot help feel regret I was not around for her BEFORE to show how to adopt a level of physical fortitude and concomitant self-worth and esteem.. In all of that would teaching her some of my MA have been of any worth whatsoever? I do not even know because we are all programmed to act and react differently and but me it has given me a change of mind from being resigned to the beatings of my father to identifying and making concrete my own personal space and understanding the inviolability of this space by any body..

This is a mind set change.. it is not a quick change.. I am only saying for me MA was a big part of it.. love,wishes Jx

 

[Hanzou]

I have a question for the group at large. Approximately how much time is spent by you with your students teaching them things other than fighting skills? We are talking about pillars of self defense, and the recurring theme seems to be that violence and fighting skills are a very small part of overall self defense. But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction.

In my school, about 90-95% of it is fighting, and about 5-10% is discussion on various concepts.

The women's self defense class may work differently.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have to say Buka I enjoyed the time I trained with Billy before a major tournament. It was way back in the day but it sure was a lot of fun!

 

[Zero]

If you say so. You obviously know what I teach and you know my take on self defence. I'm out of this discussion until you demonstrate that you actually understand what self defence is.

Huh, what, hey, where did you go?...Have gone to get the popcorn, again??! : )

 

[Zero]

I wonder if it is the same methods I use to prevent getting alpha maled at work?

What is the breakdown of that?

maybe it's coz you are the alpha male, I sure wish you would stop pushin' us other fellas around on MT

 

[Steve]

"But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction"
From conventional MA-based instructors? sure.

Not from me and most of the reality-based teachers I know (99% women). Erik Kondo is an exception: THE PROGRESSIVE BOUNDARY SETTING SYSTEM

Rory Miller gets the dimensions of mental-emotional-psychological conditioning. But even he, as good as he
is and he is very good, does not address the reality of assaults toward girls/women from people 'inside the circle'.
Chiron Convergence

Less and less focus on techniques. More and more focus on consciously facing (and coping with)
what the women and girls already know: we are/have already been molested, assaulted, harassed, raped
by family and friends/people we know; people who are already part of the 'circle of trust'. Stranger assault obsesses regular MA instructors, occurs sometimes and is the most discussed. But is the least frequent. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread, most MT threads or the classes offered by MAs.

Girls/women bring all their personal experience (and experiences of the girls/women in their families and their friends)
into the class. It dominates everything that happens in the class. Creating an environment in the class where they/we can talk about reality and learn to change what happens in the future is my responsibility.

Girls/women, me and my students have been trained/socialized very very very differently. And especially
in even naming, much less stopping, behavior and intrusion/aggression from people inside the circle.

So I share 27 ways to recognize and interupt/stop/derail/deflect/change intrusive behavior....
Recognizing, Naming, Stopping the targeting and testing aggressors use (seldom involves physical strikes etc, but definitely includes physical skills).

Because it happens (happened) to me too.

There is a lot of food for thought here. Some of the things you're pointing out mesh well with the information shared by others. But some of it stands out and makes a lot of sense. It seems that in some areas, particularly where you state that most of the real threat to women is from people they know and trust, there should be a fundamental shift in the nature of the instruction. Even some of the more thorough, self defense training would be of limited help in the context you outline. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Buka]

I have to say Buka I enjoyed the time I trained with Billy before a major tournament. It was way back in the day but it sure was a lot of fun!

He was interesting to train with, that's for sure. We were sparring partners for five years or so. Learned a lot from him. Hurt like hell sometimes, but you know how it is.

 

[elder999]

He was interesting to train with, that's for sure. We were sparring partners for five years or so. Learned a lot from him. Hurt like hell sometimes, but you know how it is.

He was pretty strong-quick, too!

 

[Buka]

He's the only guy I've ever seen do a pushup to a standing position without bending his waist. And sometimes he'd get into a pushup position, have me lie on his back, back to back (gripping the side of his gi pants) and do one hundred perfect pushups in ninety seconds. I only weigh 145, but still.

 

[elder999]

He's the only guy I've ever seen do a pushup to a standing position without bending his waist. And sometimes he'd get into a pushup position, have me lie on his back, back to back (gripping the side of his gi pants) and do one hundred perfect pushups in ninety seconds. I only weigh 145, but still.

He swept me once in a tournament.....with his arm.....felt pretty stupid, sitting there on my *** after that one!

 

[K-man]

There is a lot of food for thought here. Some of the things you're pointing out mesh well with the information shared by others. But some of it stands out and makes a lot of sense. It seems that in some areas, particularly where you state that most of the real threat to women is from people they know and trust, there should be a fundamental shift in the nature of the instruction. Even some of the more thorough, self defense training would be of limited help in the context you outline. Thank you for sharing!

In my state, we are currently running a Royal Commission into domestic violence. I don't know if it is just that more people are choosing to report it but there has been an alarming rise in the past few years.

I think that there is huge scope in this area for self defence classes, not so much the fighting aspect but avoidance, de-escalation, where to call for help, etc.

 

[drop bear]

maybe it's coz you are the alpha male, I sure wish you would stop pushin' us other fellas around on MT

Nobody is getting pushed. Nobody is the alpha male here.

And I have seen a few cases of dog pile the new guy. So nobody can claim to be the victim.

 

[Zero]

Nobody is getting pushed. Nobody is the alpha male here.

And I have seen a few cases of dog pile the new guy. So nobody can claim to be the victim.

Hey, I should have put some smiley faces on that one Dropbear was only kidding!!

 

[drop bear]

Hey, I should have put some smiley faces on that one Dropbear was only kidding!!

Lol. Fair enough. By the way my trick in pubs is not to get into that competition.

 

[elder999]

Briefly, because I'm waiting for a plane, I need to just put something out there on the "female question," and attempt to be as general about it as I can (so as not to make it too specific to my methods):

1) Adrenaline is hypothalamic: it is generated in our limbic system-it is, essentially, a function of the reptile brain.....all mammals have it, and its disposition is indistinguishable from male to female in so-called lower life forms: the female lion or shark is no less violent or aggressive than males given the same sort of stimuli (the obvious exception being mating behaviors)...

2) Humans are distinguished by their higher brain functions: what we think and feel are stimulated by reactions to the activation of adrenaline, as are our reactions to it. The converse is equally true though-and this is the important part: our thoughts and feelings can stimulate the activation of adrenaline

3) If thought and emotion can stimulate the secretion of adrenaline, humans can be taught to trigger and control its secretion.

4) The key to dealing with the differences between the male and female brain (which is what you're really talking about, @Jenna , @aedrasteia ) is to tie that trigger to the desired response-reprogramming the brain to recognize (under certain circumstances) that it's not time to protect anything but oneself and one's loved ones.

5) Unfortunately, "one's loved ones," as you've already pointed out, all too often is one way of describing a woman's assailant: this can result to an emotional conflict that is not something anyone should have to 'train" for-though, having experienced it, a couple of my students have done just that.

 

[Jenna]

2) Humans are distinguished by their higher brain functions: what we think and feel are stimulated by reactions to the activation of adrenaline, as are our reactions to it. The converse is equally true though-and this is the important part: our thoughts and feelings can stimulate the activation of adrenaline

If this is true which seems highly valid and plausible then how would you say is best or most efficient ways to change, alter or adapt thoughts such that they create the appropriate -and necessary- response AND with the immediacy with which they would be needed?? That is a difficult one I think?? Jxx

 

[elder999]

If this is true which seems highly valid and plausible then how would you say is best or most efficient ways to change, alter or adapt thoughts such that they create the appropriate -and necessary- response AND with the immediacy with which they would be needed?? That is a difficult one I think?? Jxx

Briefly, because I'm on the plane, and on the phone, the key word is"trigger." It requires a conscious action, as does killing.

After you've found and can access that trigger, though, it's like flipping a light switch.

 

[oftheherd1]

"But my impression is that this is the bulk of self defense instruction"
From conventional MA-based instructors? sure.

Not from me and most of the reality-based teachers I know (99% women). Erik Kondo is an exception: THE PROGRESSIVE BOUNDARY SETTING SYSTEM

Rory Miller gets the dimensions of mental-emotional-psychological conditioning. But even he, as good as he
is and he is very good, does not address the reality of assaults toward girls/women from people 'inside the circle'.
Chiron Convergence

Less and less focus on techniques. More and more focus on consciously facing (and coping with)
what the women and girls already know: we are/have already been molested, assaulted, harassed, raped
by family and friends/people we know; people who are already part of the 'circle of trust'. Stranger assault obsesses regular MA instructors, occurs sometimes and is the most discussed. But is the least frequent. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread, most MT threads or the classes offered by MAs.

Girls/women bring all their personal experience (and experiences of the girls/women in their families and their friends)
into the class. It dominates everything that happens in the class. Creating an environment in the class where they/we can talk about reality and learn to change what happens in the future is my responsibility.

Girls/women, me and my students have been trained/socialized very very very differently. And especially
in even naming, much less stopping, behavior and intrusion/aggression from people inside the circle.

So I share 27 ways to recognize and interupt/stop/derail/deflect/change intrusive behavior....
Recognizing, Naming, Stopping the targeting and testing aggressors use (seldom involves physical strikes etc, but definitely includes physical skills).

Because it happens (happened) to me too.

Good for you! Do you think women have a better chance of relating to women students when talking about the secret, dirty side of, as you put it,the inner circle? I know about that, and can provide opportunities for women or children to talk. But that opportunity never presented itself in club/dojo when I taught (actually, if it had, I would probably have turned it over to one of two students I had who were Psychologists). Also, as an investigator, that wasn't our main focus, although there were services we could encourage people to partake in. And I did that as often as I thought necessary, even if obliquely; to keep them from fearing their 'secret' was known to everybody.

But I always thought I might be treading on thin ice, that I my motives might be misunderstood, especially with women or girls, or that known or potential victims might react in ways, out of fear or embarrassment, that might be to my detriment. Probably another reason for sometimes acting obliquely.

But I would be interested in your opinion, and I think it might be useful to MT members.

 

[oftheherd1]

Briefly, because I'm on the plane, and on the phone, the key word is"trigger." It requires a conscious action, as does killing.

After you've found and can access that trigger, though, it's like flipping a light switch.

A thing that I believe has helped me is to always be aware; and when I see something that "could" go against me, to begin thinking of solutions. I sometimes even meditate on techniques and made up situations where they might, or might not, be useful. Don't get me wrong, I don't do any of that morbidly, but just as a way to have options for avoiding problems, or to act in my best interests if I do. Most things in real life, don't even come close to being a problem, simply because there is no problem there. But I don't think it wrong to be as ready as possible.

Another thing that helped me was early on, a decision as a soldier, and later, as a soldier policeman, that I might have to kill. As a soldier, it was a matter of serving my country, protecting my buddies, and keeping myself alive. I never saw a problem with that, rather considered it as right. The only thing I feared as a policeman, was the potential paperwork. But shooting and/or killing people under the correct (legal) circumstances was something I accommodated to early on.

I am guessing elder can suggest methods for training that would help. My thought is to get people, men or women, to accept that certain situations require survival modes to kick in, along with a quick evaluation as to whether fight or flight is better. I think a lot of people, perhaps women more than men but still both, have an aversion to injuring others, even when under attack. Survival mode can help that. Survival mode doesn't have to incur a panic mode, simply a realization that survival is at stake and certain reactions are required.

Elder - Is that correct from you point of view, or do you see other things needed?

 

[aedrasteia]

But some of it stands out and makes a lot of sense. It seems that in some areas, particularly where you state that most of the real threat to women is from people they know and trust, there should be a fundamental shift in the nature of the instruction. Even some of the more thorough, self defense training would be of limited help in the context you outline. Thank you for sharing!

thanks Steve, I appreciate your POV.

Yes, a fundamental shift in the nature of SD4W instruction would be a huge improvement. There is no lack of information/data about threats to girls/women from friends/family/known aggressors. The information is available and many MA based instructors pay lip service to that understanding. But this reality is absent from their instruction/classes and appear to be baffled or unable to take it in and make their instruction connect to women's lives. The focus-assumption is entirely on the 'stranger in an alley/street/parking lot'.

Why?