Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[JowGaWolf]

^^^^^^^^ AGREED!

I am willing to step out on a limb and state if 'most' of what you have seen is from the mma world as to thai clinch much is not a very good representation of it. There are variations of the thai clinch that are not the double neck tie type. A lot of what seems is upright positioning is because the other is very good at countering the breakdown of the structure.
Taught a muay thai workshop this weekend to a mma group with clinch being a part. Entering, controlling, and countering. Attacking with knees, elbows, and punches. Countering and preventing attacks with in the clinch, trips, sweeps, and takedowns within the clinch and exiting the clinch without taking damage or getting KOed.

Many were amazed with how little they could do when placed in a proper clinch.

"How little they could do when placed in a proper clinch? lol you can always get that ticket and "go for the ride" and hope it's a short one preferably being tossed to the ground instead of kneed in the ribs.

 

[drop bear]

Being that is a fight hopefully the knife would have been pulled
.

At which point most self defence moves don't work either.

 

[Juany118]

No, but there are techniques which give you a better chance than others of spotting someone pulling a knife in time to react appropriately.

Exactly. Knives are dang dangerous but their primary danger in a street encounter is their stealth. If you opponent has half a clue, even before you enter grappling range, he will be trying to ensure you "feel" the knife before you "see" the knife. Why do that job for him by using techniques that prevent seeing the knife with no effort on their part?

Seeing the pocket knife also, at a minimum, will like save ya even if you get cut. Slashes from a pocket knife hurt, can scar and are bloody but are rarely, if ever, fatal. It's thrusts that more often than not kill people because vital organs or arteries were compromised (Columbian neck ties not withstanding of course)

 

[Danny T]

"How little they could do when placed in a proper clinch? lol you can always get that ticket and "go for the ride" and hope it's a short one preferably being tossed to the ground instead of kneed in the ribs.

...or eating a couple of elbows.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly. Knives are dang dangerous but their primary danger in a street encounter is their stealth. If you opponent has half a clue, even before you enter grappling range, he will be trying to ensure you "feel" the knife before you "see" the knife. Why do that job for him by using techniques that prevent seeing the knife with no effort on their part?

Seeing the pocket knife also, at a minimum, will like save ya even if you get cut. Slashes from a pocket knife hurt, can scar and are bloody but are rarely, if ever, fatal. It's thrusts that more often than not kill people because vital organs or arteries were compromised (Columbian neck ties not withstanding of course)

Yeah rarely if ever kill is kind of better than months in treatment because you get your arm cut.

But still increadably sucktastick from what I have seen.

I know the guy who did this attack. And is a legitimately bad guy.

Knife attack on two people

And yeah. He got off which tells you how effective a good lawer is I suppose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I will take your jump guard and raise you a flying triangle.

Too risky. It can end like this.

 

[drop bear]

Too risky. It can end like this.

So can just standing there apparently.

(There is a trick to pulling off a single leg like that. And considering you can suplex a guy from there. Legs around the waist wasn't the worst idea.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

At which point most self defence moves don't work either.

For playing that ridiculous demo of knife defense lol. I always get a good laugh at that video especially the 70 slashes of death.

This is my favorite one because it plays into the argument that if you know staff then you can use a broom like a staff. I guess this was a missed opportunity.

But then again here's what I was referring to. That the fight starts without a knife and then suddenly one pops up during the wrestling. For me personally I would rather see the knife from the very beginning then for it to come out in the middle of the fight.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah rarely if ever kill is kind of better than months in treatment because you get your arm cut.

But still increadably sucktastick from what I have seen.

I know the guy who did this attack. And is a legitimately bad guy.

Knife attack on two people

And yeah. He got off which tells you how effective a good lawer is I suppose.

Oh it sure as hell sucks. My only point was to say that sometimes it's better, imo, to use tactics that are effective empty hand but also assume the person may pull a blade. It is the blade that you feel before you see it that is more likely to be a stab wound than a slash.

I saw the effects of this first hand actually. A suspect went to commit a strong arm robbery on a man he didn't know was armed with a knife. Witness say when the victim refused to give up the wallet the suspect went to take the victim down to the ground. The victim pulled his pocket knife and stabbed blindly, no skill, as he was taken down. He got the suspect in the inner thigh with a thrust and punctured the femoral artery. The suspect ran 30 feet, dropped and had bled out by the time we got there.

That rammed home to me "treat everyone like they have a knife" because I am less apt to be surprised and IF they have a knife chances are I will "just" get cut (yes it still sucks) rather than be stabbed (sucks a lot more.). Sometimes on the street it's a matter of choosing what sucks the least.

 

[JowGaWolf]

...or eating a couple of elbows.

lol yeah. Contrary to the name, the funny bone isn't that funny and it tastes horrible.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Oh it sure as hell sucks. My only point was to say that sometimes it's better, imo, to use tactics that are effective empty hand but also assume the person may pull a blade. It is the blade that you feel before you see it that is more likely to be a stab wound than a slash.

I saw the effects of this first hand actually. A suspect went to commit a strong arm robbery on a man he didn't know was armed with a knife. Witness say when the victim refused to give up the wallet the suspect went to take the victim down to the ground. The victim pulled his pocket knife and stabbed blindly, no skill, as he was taken down. He got the suspect in the inner thigh with a thrust and punctured the femoral artery. The suspect ran 30 feet, dropped and had bled out by the time we got there.

That rammed home to me "treat everyone like they have a knife" because I am less apt to be surprised and IF they have a knife chances are I will "just" get cut (yes it still sucks) rather than be stabbed (sucks a lot more.). Sometimes on the street it's a matter of choosing what sucks the least.

So what you are saying is to beat the person as brutally as possible just in case they have a knife that they want to pull out. I think I'm going to walk around with a sword from now on.

 

[Juany118]

So what you are saying is to beat the person as brutally as possible just in case they have a knife that they want to pull out. I think I'm going to walk around with a sword from now on.

No not at all, simply make sure you use techniques that allow you to maintain as much awareness as possible, such as don't use the Muay Thai clinch as you won't be able to see a knife drawn at the same time it places you in a position to be stabbed easily. If you have to grapple try to make sure you are controlling arms, unless in a completely dominate position. That kinda thing.

However I would also say that a goal should be to end the fight as quickly as possible. The problem there I find lies in judgement. Example. My Sifu is big on making us think. Sometimes he will purposefully make a mistake to see if we catch it. Other times he will simply ask, "what do you do from here." Tonight one of the younger lads (well younger than me) did everything right in response to that question except he ended with a strike to the throat. I piped up at that point and said "son if you do that you sure as heck better be able to justify a threat to your life since if you connect solidly with that full force that guy is going to need an airway inserted by a Paramedic to breath, if they arrive on scene in time that is."

I have become the class's defacto "use of force continuum" consultant lol, but I tend to stay out of the way until stuff like that happens. Lol

 

[Red Sun]

Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

 

[Juany118]

Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

I can have my knife drawn, deployed and striking you in one move basically just with my reaction time (average human reaction time is less than one second). I carry this FOX DART XT Knife & DART XTTK Trainer with Training (U.S.) DVD (Hand Size: M - XL). If you then add in the spring assisted knives out there like Gerber Mini FAST Draw Tanto Knife Assisted Opening (2.13" Black Plain) - Blade HQ, that require no practice to use...

Another consideration is you don't run unless that guy, if you closed the distance like that, unless they are DOWN because if they are armed and catch up, you are screwed.

 

[drop bear]

Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

You could probably see the knife from there as well as you can see one from anywhere else.

Face punching is pretty distracting for both parties.

 

[Red Sun]

Another consideration is you don't run unless that guy, if you closed the distance like that, unless they are DOWN because if they are armed and catch up, you are screwed.

Well... yeah. But you're also a bit screwed if you stay and fight.
EDIT: as far as weapons are concerned, i mean

 

[Juany118]

Well... yeah. But you're also a bit screwed if you stay and fight.
EDIT: as far as weapons are concerned, i mean

That's why I say use tactics and techniques that maximize situational awareness as much as possible first and foremost for the street. The Muay Thai clinch doesn't do that.

Basically, the way I am trained to fight, you always try to make sure you can watch elbows and knees. Not only do these indicate what's coming and how BUT since the waist and hands are in between them you are also watching for potential weapon deployment as you scan.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And yet we have a whole video of guys just forgetting to simply x block when they are getting their faces kneed off.

Well then I guess that makes it completely impossible for anyone to ever apply an X-block against a knee strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

By using your knee to block your opponent's knee strike should be the best solution.

After you have used your knee to block your opponent's knee strike, a

- hook on his standing leg, and
- push on his upper body

can take him down and end the stand up fight.

 

[drop bear]

Well then I guess that makes it completely impossible for anyone to ever apply an X-block against a knee strike.

Makes it a lot less likely that you will block a knee pick it up and dump the guy.