Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[drop bear]

Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.

I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.

Nice knife, BTW.

So then unarmed vs knife is a bad idea.

 

[drop bear]

Keep in mind that people have been knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp.
Sure, it happens, but it isn't actually all that common. And most people are not going to be knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp or by a single knee strike.

We are basing our self defence on stories anyway. So if they can pull out pocket knives mid grapple then I can throw ko knees and elbows from the clinch.

I mean we could go back to asking how much of a shot do you have when a guy pulls a knife from six feet away. Says."I have a knife" and then proceeds to stab you.

If we could solve that little issue then maybe I would give up an opportunity get plumb and throw a few free shots at a guy or avoid a few shots from that guy.

On the off chance that he may pull a knife from the clinch. Or has a friend with a knife or was secretly a bear in disguise. Or any other set of conditions that we can make up.

 

[Hanzou]

So a person in a completely submissive position on the edge of blacking out in the primal panic of drowning isn't similar to being in a less submissive position getting knees to the face... If the civilian hadn't showed up and gotten him out of the water, the Trooper would be dead. Okay.

No. Getting choked and drowned is not a similar situation to getting blows to the head from knees and getting your head squeezed and your body wrangled by a properly applied thai clinch.

Yes, people have been knocked out by a single knee but again this simply proves that you are relying on, essentially, the perfect execution and best case scenario for the person using it. This thread wasn't just about a highly skilled Muay Thai fighter but self defense. It is foolish in the extreme to argue self defense based on best case scenarios.

Nonsense. You don't need to be a highly skilled MT fighter to pull off that technique. Many people trained in MMA and self trained are perfectly capable of performing the technique as well. Further, you never stated that your knife counter only applied to unskilled people pretending to know what they were doing, you implied that the knife counter works against the clinch regardless of who was applying It.

Finally, it doesn't require perfect execution, it just requires solid execution, and the clinch provides an excellent opening for your head to get nailed by knees, especially when your opponent is trained to do it. Getting hit in the head multiple times amplifies your chances of getting knocked out.

 

[Juany118]

So then unarmed vs knife is a bad idea.

It absolutely is, but sometimes in self defense you have to deal with bad ideas, hell very bad ideas.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So recap.
Getting kneed, elbowed, and put into a Muay Thai clinch by a professional Muay Thai fighter who is skilled will result in a doctors bill.
Getting kneed, elbowed, and put into a Muay Thai clinch by an everyday person who is not trained is something that can be managed and probably defeated with little to no problem.

Kneed or elbowed in the face is never good. A person may not be knocked out, but their face will hurt. lol

 

[drop bear]

It absolutely is, but sometimes in self defense you have to deal with bad ideas, hell very bad ideas.

I thought you had a method of fighting that allowed you to deal with not only getting bashed. But then deal with a knife if it is pulled.

 

[Juany118]

No. Getting choked and drowned is not a similar situation to getting blows to the head from knees and getting your head squeezed and your body wrangled by a properly applied thai clinch.



Nonsense. You don't need to be a highly skilled MT fighter to pull off that technique. Many people trained in MMA are perfectly capable of performing the technique as well. Further, you never stated that your knife counter only applied to unskilled people pretending to know what they were doing, you implied that the knife counter works against the clinch regardless of who was applying It.

Finally, it doesn't require perfect execution, it just requires solid execution, and the clinch provides an excellent opening for your head to get nailed by knees, especially when your opponent is trained to do it. Getting hit in the head multiple times amplifies your chances of getting knocked out.

And you still dodge the main point. Pulling a knife and stabbing is easier than just about any technique that can counter this clinch/knee combo. So logic dictates there are only two options.

1. It's is either perfectly executed and the "victim" can do absolutely nothing to prevent getting beat down.
2. It is not perfectly executed and the "victim" can potentially execute counters. Then deploying a knife and stabbing the "clincher" is more than possible because that is easier than many if not most of the counters.

 

[Hanzou]

And you still dodge the main point. Pulling a knife and stabbing is easier than just about any technique that can counter this clinch/knee combo. So logic dictates there are only two options.

1. It's is either perfectly executed and the "victim" can do absolutely nothing to prevent getting beat down.
2. It is not perfectly executed and the "victim" can potentially execute counters. Then deploying a knife and stabbing the "clincher" is more than possible because that is easier than many if not most of the counters.

You can counter a well executed clinch by a variety of methods and just about all of those methods fall under grappling with the main idea of protecting your head and face from blows.

My issue is with the notion of not defending your head and face while you are attempting to go for a knife, and believing that head blows have zero effect on your cognitive abilities. In any situation where you are in an inferior position and someone is raining blows on your head, the FIRST thing you do is defend yourself from the blows. Leaving your head open to more blows multiplies the risk of knock out or severe damage to your head.

Additionally, I never said that it wasn't possible to whip out a knife and attempt to defend yourself. What I said is that attempting to pull a knife while someone is in a dominant position hitting you in the face with a barrage of knees isn't advisable. It's the exact same thing as the ridiculous notion that you should go for a knife when someone is on top of you punching or elbowing you in the head.

 

[Juany118]

I thought you had a method of fighting that allowed you to deal with not only getting bashed. But then deal with a knife if it is pulled.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Knife defense is no different than unarmed defense in one respect, there is no perfect technique. Getting into any self defense scenario is dangerous, a knife being involved amps up the danger. There are techniques to deal with knives and getting bashed yeah, but if you remember I said that when you execute unarmed knife defense you basically have to go through the following thought process.

1. Your focus is to avoid getting cut first and foremost.
2. Accept however that getting cut is a damn good possibility.

Seems like you are back to your strawmaning again. Wondering why I took you off ignore.

 

[drop bear]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Knife defense is no different than unarmed defense in one respect, there is no perfect technique. Getting into any self defense scenario is dangerous, a knife being involved amps up the danger. There are techniques to deal with knives and getting bashed yeah, but if you remember I said that when you execute unarmed knife defense you basically have to go through the following thought process.

1. Your focus is to avoid getting cut first and foremost.
2. Accept however that getting cut is a damn good possibility.

Seems like you are back to your strawmaning again. Wondering why I took you off ignore.

Because you thought I would suddenly start believing in your fairy tales mabye?

Strawman?

The whole knife conversation is a strawman. In that someone came up with the idea that head control won't let you see a knife pulled in time to let you deal with it.(kind of incorrect assumption)

And so there is another method(so far unspecified) that will fill the role of head control and let you deal with your strawman knife.

Dude if you don't want to be called out on your make believe. Then you need to put people on ignore. Or engage in less make believe scenarios.

Not my issue resolve that any way you want.


Now will plumb work if someone is suddenly in a tank?

 

[Juany118]

You can counter a well executed clinch by a variety of methods and just about all of those methods fall under grappling with the main idea of protecting your head and face from blows.

My issue is with the notion of not defending your head and face while you are attempting to go for a knife, and believing that head blows have zero effect on your cognitive abilities. In any situation where you are in an inferior position and someone is raining blows on your head, the FIRST thing you do is defend yourself from the blows. Leaving your head open to more blows multiplies the risk of knock out or severe damage to your head.

Additionally, I never said that it wasn't possible to whip out a knife and attempt to defend yourself. What I said is that attempting to pull a knife while someone is in a dominant position hitting you in the face with a barrage of knees isn't advisable.

Again, we're talking about you getting kneed in the face while in a painful headlock.

Then I would say you are thinking in a "competition" mind set vs a self defense mindset and having such a mindset, can create assumptions that can get you hurt or killed.

If you are being beaten that bad you can justify drawing a knife and stabbing the crap out of someone. It doesn't make sense to you as a skilled grappler but it makes perfect sense to people lacking that mind set. It's likely what the now dead wrestler in the call I responded to was thinking as well, "here are the grappling defenses to what I am doing" and while he was thinking that he took a knife to femoral artery and bled out.

To use a variation of your analogy one could also say that "when pinned on your side the majority of techniques to get free are grappling techniques. It is ill advised to draw a knife and counter attack when your lungs are filling with water because your are being held down in a creek." Well what was "I'll advised" there worked well.

Last time I checked we were talking about self defense here. As such the guy you are applying the clinch to is the aggressor, he is a "bad guy". Ergo, if armed and on the losing end, he will more than likely use that weapon not caring about the consequences. All he cares about is that his attack ends successfully.

 

[drop bear]

No. Getting choked and drowned is not a similar situation to getting blows to the head from knees and getting your head squeezed and your body wrangled by a properly applied thai clinch.



Nonsense. You don't need to be a highly skilled MT fighter to pull off that technique. Many people trained in MMA and self trained are perfectly capable of performing the technique as well. Further, you never stated that your knife counter only applied to unskilled people pretending to know what they were doing, you implied that the knife counter works against the clinch regardless of who was applying It.

Finally, it doesn't require perfect execution, it just requires solid execution, and the clinch provides an excellent opening for your head to get nailed by knees, especially when your opponent is trained to do it. Getting hit in the head multiple times amplifies your chances of getting knocked out.

And we are talking the streets. Which is usually a whole bunch less time as far as the actual fight is concerned. One good crack can decide the outcome.

This idea that people are willing to eat knees from plumb to employ their game is a pretty new one to me.

Everybody I have ever trained with really does not want to eat knees for any reason.

 

[Juany118]

Because you thought I would suddenly start believing in your fairy tales mabye?

Strawman?

The whole knife conversation is a strawman. In that someone came up with the idea that head control won't let you see a knife pulled in time to let you deal with it.(kind of incorrect assumption)

And so there is another method(so far unspecified) that will fill the role of head control and let you deal with your strawman knife.

Dude if you don't want to be called out on your make believe. Then you need to put people on ignore. Or engage in less make believe scenarios.

Not my issue resolve that any way you want.


Now will plumb work if someone is suddenly in a tank?

How, in a conversation about self defense raising the fact, that there are no rules and weapons often become involved a strawman? If we were talking about in the ring you are so fixated on it would be a strawman, however on the street it is a perfectly valid point to raise.

Your response became a virtual strawman because you created a new argument by purposefully taking a statement by me, regarding knife defense techniques, out of context as I have made it clear, time and time again, that unarmed defense against a knife is a damn dangerous thing to try and pull off but in self defense, your focus cant be myopically focused on "just beat the other guy" like in the ring.

You need to keep environmental factors in mind, you need to keep in mind your assailant may be armed and approach them with this in mind and, if they are armed, accept the fact that even though it is dangerous and SUCKS, you may be forced to deal with that weapon when not armed.

It's one of the reasons I am almost never unarmed. I don't carry a gun off duty but I unless I am going somewhere where it is prohibited I always have the knife on me I linked earlier. If I am going to a bad area at night I often carry this as well. SureFire E2D LED Defender Ultra Flashlight. 500 Lumens to the eyes plus blunt force trauma from the correct strike can be a big equalizer when an assailant draws a weapon.

 

[drop bear]

How, in a conversation about self defense raising the fact, that there are no rules and weapons often become involved a strawman? If we were talking about in the ring you are so fixated on it would be a strawman, however on the street it is a perfectly valid point to raise.

Your response became a virtual strawman because you created a new argument by purposefully taking a statement by me, regarding knife defense techniques, out of context as I have made it clear, time and time again, that unarmed defense against a knife is a damn dangerous thing to try and pull off but in self defense, your focus cant be myopically focused on "just beat the other guy" like in the ring.

You need to keep environmental factors in mind, you need to keep in mind your assailant may be armed and approach them with this in mind and, if they are armed, accept the fact that even though it is dangerous and SUCKS, you may be forced to deal with that weapon when not armed.

It's one of the reasons I am almost never unarmed. I don't carry a gun off duty but I unless I am going somewhere where it is prohibited I always have the knife on me I linked earlier. If I am going to a bad area at night I often carry this as well. SureFire E2D LED Defender Ultra Flashlight. 500 Lumens to the eyes plus blunt force trauma from the correct strike can be a big when an assailant draws a weapon.

So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?

I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.

I put faith in what I can see being used and what I can personally employ.

So if you can replace the plumb by something I can see being used and something I can employ that is fine. Otherwise you are selling snake oil.

Now you are making out street fighting to be a lot less complicated than it is

It is not a bunch of simple rationalisations based on what someone down the pub told you.

It s a bunch of fuzzy concepts that you can use or not use depending on the circumstances you are in at the time.

So one way to negate a knife attack is to finish the fight quickly by maintaining momentum and having positional dominance. Eg. Thai clinch.

One way to spot a knife draw is to not be distracted defending whatever else they are throwing at you. By maintaining momentum and positional dominance.

It is no good having a back up plan if you are eating punches. You need to deal with that. Then deal with mabye knives.

My torch is better than yours. So there.

 

[drop bear]

So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?

I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.

I put faith in what I can see being used and what I can personally employ.

So if you can replace the plumb by something I can see being used and something I can employ that is fine. Otherwise you are selling snake oil.

Now you are making out street fighting to be a lot less complicated than it is

It is not a bunch of simple rationalisations based on what someone down the pub told you.

It s a bunch of fuzzy concepts that you can use or not use depending on the circumstances you are in at the time.

So one way to negate a knife attack is to finish the fight quickly by maintaining momentum and having positional dominance. Eg. Thai clinch.

One way to spot a knife draw is to not be distracted defending whatever else they are throwing at you. By maintaining momentum and positional dominance.

It is no good having a back up plan if you are eating punches. You need to deal with that. Then deal with mabye knives.

My torch is better than yours. So there.

By the way on torch defence. The biggest advantage to a SD torch is what you kind of see in that video. If you can see a hundred metres ahead of you. You can see a drama a hundred metres ahead of you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So then unarmed vs knife is a bad idea.

Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.

Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.

 

[drop bear]

Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.

Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.

Yeah but people don't accept that because they really want knife defence to work.

Heck. I really want knife defence to work as much as anyone. But I am not putting my faith in it.

 

[Juany118]

So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?

I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.

I put faith in what I can see being used and what I can personally employ.

So if you can replace the plumb by something I can see being used and something I can employ that is fine. Otherwise you are selling snake oil.

Now you are making out street fighting to be a lot less complicated than it is

It is not a bunch of simple rationalisations based on what someone down the pub told you.

It s a bunch of fuzzy concepts that you can use or not use depending on the circumstances you are in at the time.

So one way to negate a knife attack is to finish the fight quickly by maintaining momentum and having positional dominance. Eg. Thai clinch.

One way to spot a knife draw is to not be distracted defending whatever else they are throwing at you. By maintaining momentum and positional dominance.

It is no good having a back up plan if you are eating punches. You need to deal with that. Then deal with mabye knives.

My torch is better than yours. So there.

So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?

I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.

I put faith in what I can see being used and what I can personally employ.

So if you can replace the plumb by something I can see being used and something I can employ that is fine. Otherwise you are selling snake oil.

Now you are making out street fighting to be a lot less complicated than it is

It is not a bunch of simple rationalisations based on what someone down the pub told you.

It s a bunch of fuzzy concepts that you can use or not use depending on the circumstances you are in at the time.

So one way to negate a knife attack is to finish the fight quickly by maintaining momentum and having positional dominance. Eg. Thai clinch.

One way to spot a knife draw is to not be distracted defending whatever else they are throwing at you. By maintaining momentum and positional dominance.

It is no good having a back up plan if you are eating punches. You need to deal with that. Then deal with mabye knives.

My torch is better than yours. So there.

First simply because a knife is more dangerous does NOT mean you can't deal with it period. What it means is that, in self defense situations when you don't know whether or not the suspect may be armed you use techniques that maximize situational awareness and decrease vulnerabilities to weapons vs ones that reduce situational awareness and increase vulnerabilities. Self defense is NOT about beating the crap out of other people like in the ring, it is about mitigating risk as you defend yourself. The first step in risk mitigation is situational awareness.

The positional dominate of a Thai Clinch stops effective punching an kicking yes BUT it does not stop what would be an ineffective punch but is now an effective stab because a knife is in the hand and it not only limits perception of the waist/pocket area but also places you in a perfect position for a thrust into the abdomen.

As for your light definitely brighter, no doubt. I selected my light for the following reasons.

1. In a real self defense encounter you usually don't know the person is a actual threat until they are rather close. Also such encounters usually happen in urban areas with some sort of overhead lighting. It's not like you are in pitch black and need to be aware of a cliff.
2. Due to number 1 the main purpose of the light is to "dazzle" and 500 lumens does fine. I don't know about your purposes but even at work, due to the environment of my town, 950 lumens is overkill.
3. If you look at the bezel and end cap of my light they are specifically designed to do more damage and cause more pain when used to strike.

So basically, for my purposes, yours may be different, 950 lumens is the equivalent of using a 12 gauge shotgun to kill a mouse, and I appreciate the additional "meat" on the bezel and end cap of the one I selected.

 

[Hanzou]

Then I would say you are thinking in a "competition" mind set vs a self defense mindset and having such a mindset, can create assumptions that can get you hurt or killed.

Do you believe that there is some mystical filter that prevents a "competition" technique from being effective on the street? A knee to your face has the same impact on you whether you're standing in a ring or in a parking lot.

If you are being beaten that bad you can justify drawing a knife and stabbing the crap out of someone. It doesn't make sense to you as a skilled grappler but it makes perfect sense to people lacking that mind set. It's likely what the now dead wrestler in the call I responded to was thinking as well, "here are the grappling defenses to what I am doing" and while he was thinking that he took a knife to femoral artery and bled out.

The point is that if you're being beaten that badly you're not going to have the mental clarity to reach for the knife, grab the knife, deploy the blade (if its a pocket knife or a balisong) and begin to slice and stab at your attacker. Again, while you're attempting to do all of this you are getting rag-dolled from the neck down and getting kneed in the face.

To use a variation of your analogy one could also say that "when pinned on your side the majority of techniques to get free are grappling techniques. It is ill advised to draw a knife and counter attack when your lungs are filling with water because your are being held down in a creek." Well what was "I'll advised" there worked well.

You do realize that there is a big difference between being pinned down and getting consistent blows to your head right?

Last time I checked we were talking about self defense here. As such the guy you are applying the clinch to is the aggressor, he is a "bad guy". Ergo, if armed and on the losing end, he will more than likely use that weapon not caring about the consequences. All he cares about is that his attack ends successfully.

Again, do you believe that there is some magical filter in place that prevents a knee to the head to be less effective in a given environment? As I've said numerous times, blows to the head effect a wide variety of motor functions and will effect your ability to fight back, especially if your weapon wasn't already deployed when the blows started raining in.

 

[drop bear]

The positional dominate of a Thai Clinch stops effective punching an kicking yes BUT it does not stop what would be an ineffective punch but is now an effective stab because a knife is in the hand and it not only limits perception of the waist/pocket area but also places you in a perfect position for a thrust into the abdomen.

What exactly are you using instead?

Lets see if your alternative works against anybody anywhere before we start adding knives.

Show me what you are doing to stop effective punches and kicks. Because they will still end a fight in the other guys favor.