Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[JowGaWolf]

If you are 50/50 but you are not. They have dominant position so it isn't very likely you are going to break their structure as they have the mechanical advantage.

Even at 50/50, it's only an assumption. A true 50/50 is a stalemate.

In fighting there is rarely a true 50/50. The reality of a 50/50 is that it can easily become a situation where one person is dominant for example 51/49. In terms of breaking structures that 1% dominance is more than enough to layout some pain. That 1% dominance in structure could be the difference between standing up and being thrown to the ground, or kneed.

I have to agree with drop bear on this one. I've been put in a Muay Thai clinch and it felt like that 1% was more than enough to turn a stalemate into something painful.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When the Muay Thai clinch is executed properly it just destroys the balance.

The keyword here is "properly".

If you don't give your opponent a chance to apply his MT clinch "properly", you win. Otherwise, you lose.

When your opponent has double neck tie on you.

- You use your left hand to pin down his right elbow to force his right fore-arm to touch on your chest.
- You use your right fore-arm to smash on his left upper arm to force his left elbow joint to bend to his right (your left). This will make his arms closer to each other.
- You step back your left leg and spin your body to your left.

This can make his MT clinch "improperly".

Never let your opponent to feel comfortable in his clinch is the key here. When you make your opponent to feel uncomfortable, you will make yourself to feel comfortable.

 

[JP3]

Nope. Won't work. Different sort of clinch.

Drop, while I disagree witht he O/P use of the word "Nobody," and I totally agree with you that a Thai clinch is a serious problem to deal with (I loved to use it and did so all the time), I've had a simple kosotogari or kosogake take us (my opponent and i) both the ground before as Wang said above. One way to think about the Thai clinch is that it's a posture breaking device, used in a stand-up striking art to tear down the opponents structure, and keep him off-balance while you damage the begeezus out of him with your knee strikes -- or you can just use it to take a breather.

I was stubborn, and stuck to my technique even though I was doing some free-fight traning with some other guys, just having fun, seeing who could pee the farthest, like that. One of the main reasons I ended up in Judo was this guy who had watched me "end" a couple of the fights with just this clinch, by figuring out the other guys movement and striking patterns, sliding inside their guard with a combination and allowing them to fall ihnto the clinch. Then, it's all over but the crying, I used to say in my arrogance. *shrug* Everyone learns humility, sooner or later. I think I've had to learn it about 17 times and I'm probably due for number 18 any day now.

Anyway, judo guy asks me to work with him, and I said sure as he had some golden gloves in his background. We went back and forth a minute or so, he scoring on me with his better than my boxing skills, me sorting of making his day worse with the leg kicks, even though not so hard, and then I got the combination I wanted and he fell into the trap of the clinch. I thought.

It went on, I locked it down and applied the locking angles, bringing the judokas head down and to me (any judo guys out there can start laughing now, I know now what I just did), and the next thing I know I'm first on my butt, then on my back with an indian carpet laying on me and really not so much in a clinch any more.

I figured it out after a couple more times, but the vulnerability is right there. It's just not there in a Thai-boxing match, as it's illegal. Clinch goes on, opponent goes with it (ju) and ends up literally under the constriction of the clinch, maybe gives up a little skin, but then it's an easy leg vs. leg technique. You can almost pick one, especially the sacrifice ones.

I trained witht he judo guy off and on for a couple months, and ended up with he and I working through a transition technique of sorts, which, depending on how I was attacked, ended up with my clinch still on, for what it's worth, and holding a guard or mount position depending on where we went, but very often it ended up being a half-guard I'd managed to snag on the way down.

And that, my buddy, is how I got introduced to BJJ as a next step.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let's compare the following 6 different clinches.

1. double neck tie - you control your opponent's head but his both arms are free.
2. bear hug - you control your opponent's waist but his both arms are free.
3. head lock - you control your opponent's head and one of his arms but his other arm is still free.
4. waist wrap - you control your opponent's waist and his arms but his other arm is still free.
5. double under hook - you control both of your opponent's arms and none of his arms is free.
6. double over hook - you control both of your opponent's arms and none of his arms is free.

In theory, 5. 6 > 4, 3 > 1, 2.

But since in 3, you are using your arm (the strong part of your body) to deal with your opponent's neck (the weak part of his body), that will be your advantage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What will happen when a MT guy gets a clinch on a wrestler?

Will the

- MT guy knees the wrestler to death, or
- wrestler takes the MT guy down?

Nobody will knows. That's the beauty of the MMA format. It's your skill against your opponent's skill. But one thing for sure is, from a wrestler point of view, if you don't kill me with your knee, I will take you down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What will happen when a MT guy gets a clinch on a wrestler?

Will the

- MT guy knees the wrestler to death, or
- wrestler takes the MT guy down?

Nobody will knows. That's the beauty of the MMA format. It's your skill against your opponent's skill. But one thing for sure is, from a wrestler point of view, if you don't kill me with your knee, I will take you down.

yep pretty much how their mind works.

 

[drop bear]

Drop, while I disagree witht he O/P use of the word "Nobody," and I totally agree with you that a Thai clinch is a serious problem to deal with (I loved to use it and did so all the time), I've had a simple kosotogari or kosogake take us (my opponent and i) both the ground before as Wang said above. One way to think about the Thai clinch is that it's a posture breaking device, used in a stand-up striking art to tear down the opponents structure, and keep him off-balance while you damage the begeezus out of him with your knee strikes -- or you can just use it to take a breather.

I was stubborn, and stuck to my technique even though I was doing some free-fight traning with some other guys, just having fun, seeing who could pee the farthest, like that. One of the main reasons I ended up in Judo was this guy who had watched me "end" a couple of the fights with just this clinch, by figuring out the other guys movement and striking patterns, sliding inside their guard with a combination and allowing them to fall ihnto the clinch. Then, it's all over but the crying, I used to say in my arrogance. *shrug* Everyone learns humility, sooner or later. I think I've had to learn it about 17 times and I'm probably due for number 18 any day now.

Anyway, judo guy asks me to work with him, and I said sure as he had some golden gloves in his background. We went back and forth a minute or so, he scoring on me with his better than my boxing skills, me sorting of making his day worse with the leg kicks, even though not so hard, and then I got the combination I wanted and he fell into the trap of the clinch. I thought.

It went on, I locked it down and applied the locking angles, bringing the judokas head down and to me (any judo guys out there can start laughing now, I know now what I just did), and the next thing I know I'm first on my butt, then on my back with an indian carpet laying on me and really not so much in a clinch any more.

I figured it out after a couple more times, but the vulnerability is right there. It's just not there in a Thai-boxing match, as it's illegal. Clinch goes on, opponent goes with it (ju) and ends up literally under the constriction of the clinch, maybe gives up a little skin, but then it's an easy leg vs. leg technique. You can almost pick one, especially the sacrifice ones.

I trained witht he judo guy off and on for a couple months, and ended up with he and I working through a transition technique of sorts, which, depending on how I was attacked, ended up with my clinch still on, for what it's worth, and holding a guard or mount position depending on where we went, but very often it ended up being a half-guard I'd managed to snag on the way down.

And that, my buddy, is how I got introduced to BJJ as a next step.

Cool. I do know a judo guy. I will have a play with that.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you can't figure out how to take someone down while you are getting kneed in the face be better?

X-Block or double palm/forearm block against the knee strike, slip one hand under the knee and lift up whilst using your free hand to push back on the face or throat and down they go.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the above clip, both persons are training from a 100% "striker" point of view. None has intention to break/sweep/hook/scoop/block/... his opponent's single standing leg while his opponent's other leg is up for knee striking.

You can not only use your leg to kick/knee your opponent. You can also use your leg to take down your opponent too. This is why IMO, the MMA format is better. The pure "MT" and pure "wrestling" format are both too restricted.

 

[drop bear]

X-Block or double palm/forearm block against the knee strike, slip one hand under the knee and lift up whilst using your free hand to push back on the face or throat and down they go.

Man. If you want to ever pop on up and throw on a kudo mask so you dont get killed.

I can show you how difficult that is to do live.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

slip one hand under the knee and lift up whilst using your free hand to push back on the face or throat and down they go.

The "single leg" is always good to be used to counter any kick or knee. There are many different methods to obtain your opponent's leading leg. Let your opponent to knee you is one of the valid methods.

This remind me a challenge match that happened many years ago. A MT guy challenged a wrestler. Since the wrestler had no MT striking experience. The wrestler went to his teacher and asked for strategy. The teacher said, "You don't know how to punch, elbow, kick, or knee, but do you know how to take it?" In the match, the wrestler received some knee strikes on his body, took his opponent down, the stand up striking game ended right there, and the ground game started after that.

 

[KangTsai]

I swear,
Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone).

You know what this bit is pretty stupid. I'll rephrase: "It's very hard to deal with."

 

[Tez3]

You know what this bit is pretty stupid. I'll rephrase: "It's very hard to deal with."

My 'like' is for you more than the post, you'll go far!

 

[Juany118]

You can not only use your leg to kick/knee your opponent. You can also use your leg to take down your opponent too. This is why IMO, the MMA format is better. The pure "MT" and pure "wrestling" format are both too restricted.

How many striking MAs (with kicking techniques) don't have leg take downs though? Admittedly the only striking arts I have studied are Ryushinkan, WC and Kali (well Kali is kinda MMAish I suppose), but all three of then have such take downs.

 

[Tez3]

Wado has takedowns and techniques to use on the ground.

 

[HW1]

I swear,
Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?

No doubt it's a great technique and works well in competitive situations. In my opinion however is it's BAD FOR STREET SELF-DEFENSE. It leaves you vulnerable to takedowns and, more importantly, you have no control and can't easily see your opponent's hands if they pull out something sharp and shiny from their pocket.

 

[Kickboxer101]

It's not the clinch that's the scary part it's the knees coming in once they have itit

 

[Juany118]

It's not the clinch that's the scary part it's the knees coming in once they have itit

Yes but in terms of self defense the entire tactic misses what HW1 speaks to. One day just walking around look at people's pockets. You will be surprised how many people have folding clip knives. Now think of the people with "regular" folders and pocket knives. Heck the number of people I stop with box cutters is pretty crazy. Then picture the possible consequences of the clinch, you lack of vision to the waist and lower, and the danger it creates. Even with the knees it's a problem.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Man. If you want to ever pop on up and throw on a kudo mask so you dont get killed.

I can show you how difficult that is to do live.

And I could show you how hard it is to get a hold of me without getting killed first (figuratively speaking of course). X-blocks are not hard to do, live or otherwise.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Some random thoughts...

For those who don't know, the Thai version of the double collar control is often referred to as the "plum".

Just grabbing the head is not enough. You need to know how to apply the Thai clinch properly. This includes controlling the distance, breaking the opponent's structure, manipulating his balance, and countering the standard counters (which include driving in for takedowns).

The Thai clinch is useful not just for applying knees, but also for setting up elbows, other close range strikes, and some takedowns.

Properly applied, the Thai clinch is actually a pretty good platform for countering takedowns, but as I mentioned before, you need to know how to use it for that purpose.

You need to know when to give up the position and transition to something else. If you blindly hold on for dear life when your opponent starts winning the battle for structure and posture, then you can get into trouble. The best clinchers will transition smoothly between the double collar tie, other clinch positions, and disengaging from moment to moment as necessary.

As a couple of people noted, there is a problem in street application in that the position is not good for monitoring for an opponent pulling out a blade. Not saying you can't use the clinch, but you don't want to hang out there very long, especially if the opponent can maintain sufficient posture long enough to deploy a knife and you can't see his hands.

Wrestlers are good at countering head control, so if you want to use this clinch effectively against a wrestler, you need to be pretty skilled at it.

If you've never worked with someone who is good at the Thai clinch and been in that position, it's probably a mistake to explain the counters you think would work. Your ideas are ... unlikely to be as effective as you might theorize.