Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[JowGaWolf]

If you've never worked with someone who is good at the Thai clinch and been in that position, it's probably a mistake to explain the counters you think would work. Your ideas are ... unlikely to be as effective as you might theorize.

I know my first assumption about the Thai clinch was totally missing the structure breakdown, slight shifts in one directions and another shift in the other direction. My first time being in one made me think of Tai Chi. Now any countering theories will require that I factor in structural break downs. I was glad that I was able to experience this through friendly sparring and not in a competitive match where the penalty for being wrong is more painful.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You will be surprised how many people have folding clip knives.

This is why I believe that when you use both of your hands to control your opponent's head and give him 2 free arms is a bad strategy.

Here is an example of bad head lock. Why? Both of his opponent's hands are free.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I know my first assumption about the Thai clinch was totally missing the structure breakdown,

We all want to use clinch to break our opponent's structure. Whether we can achieve that goal or not will be something else.

The following statements contradict to each other - a MA paradox.

1. If you cannot use your clinch to break your opponent's structure, you are not a good wrestler.
2. If your opponent can use clinch to break your structure, you are not a good wrestler.

Some clinch only has the look but don't have the effect. May be he

- doesn't know how, or
- doesn't have the ability to do so.

For example, in the following picture, he didn't break his opponent's structure because his opponent's spine is still vertical.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

structure breakdown, ...

What's the easiest way to break down your opponent's structure?

I'll start from the head.

forehead > nose > mouth > chin > neck

Any pressure that you apply on the head, it will bend the neck, bend the spine, and collapse the body structure.

The "double neck tie" issue is when your both hands are on your opponent's low neck, you are not taking advantage on the length of his head and neck. Your rotation axis is too short compare to if you wrap one arm on his arm, wrap another arm on his head.

 

[drop bear]

No doubt it's a great technique and works well in competitive situations. In my opinion however is it's BAD FOR STREET SELF-DEFENSE. It leaves you vulnerable to takedowns and, more importantly, you have no control and can't easily see your opponent's hands if they pull out something sharp and shiny from their pocket.

 

[drop bear]

And I could show you how hard it is to get a hold of me without getting killed first (figuratively speaking of course). X-blocks are not hard to do, live or otherwise.

And yet we have a whole video of guys just forgetting to simply x block when they are getting their faces kneed off.

 

[drop bear]

Yes but in terms of self defense the entire tactic misses what HW1 speaks to. One day just walking around look at people's pockets. You will be surprised how many people have folding clip knives. Now think of the people with "regular" folders and pocket knives. Heck the number of people I stop with box cutters is pretty crazy. Then picture the possible consequences of the clinch, you lack of vision to the waist and lower, and the danger it creates. Even with the knees it's a problem.

There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack.

Is this going to come up with every single technique?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack.

Is this going to come up with every single technique?

Teacher: This is how you should fight with your open hands.
Student: What if my opponent has a knife?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent has a gun?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent throws a grenade at me?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent has a machine gun?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent drives his tank toward me?
Teacher: ...

 

[drop bear]

What's the easiest way to break down your opponent's structure?

I'll start from the head.

forehead > nose > mouth > chin > neck

Any pressure that you apply on the head, it will bend the neck, bend the spine, and collapse the body structure.

The "double neck tie" issue is when your both hands are on your opponent's low neck, you are not taking advantage on the length of his head and neck. Your rotation axis is too short compare to if you wrap one arm on his arm, wrap another arm on his head.

Except that you really shouldn't be clinching like that.

This is a no no. (Base of the neck)

You really should be hanging off the top of their head.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack.

No, but there are techniques which give you a better chance than others of spotting someone pulling a knife in time to react appropriately.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Except that you really shouldn't be clinching like that.

This is a no no. (Base of the neck)

You really should be hanging off the top of their head.

Agree that if you can put your hands behind your opponent's head as higher as possible and pull his head on your chest so his spine will bend forward, it will be better. That also mean your body is much closer to your opponent's body. You should also assume that your opponent is not a good wrestler. To a wrestler, the closer the distance, the better advantage will be for him.

You do have to be taller (or equal height) as your opponent.

 

[drop bear]

No, but there are techniques which give you a better chance than others of spotting someone pulling a knife in time to react appropriately.

How sure of these techniques are you willing to be?

Spotting that knife?

 

[drop bear]

Agree that if you can put your hand behind your opponent's head (as higher as possible), it will be better.

You do have to be taller (or equal height) as your opponent.

Because you can't reach above your own head?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because you can't reach above your own head?

If you are 5 feet and your opponent is 6 feet, your "double neck tie" will make yourself to be hanged from your opponent's neck with your feet in the air.

The

- neck control is consider to be "upper body control" (suitable for taller person).
- waist control is consider to be "lower body control" (suitable for shorter person).

 

[drop bear]

If you are 5 feet and your opponent is 6 feet, your "double neck tie" will make yourself to be hanged from your opponent's neck with your feet in the air.

The

- neck control is consider to be "upper body control" (suitable for taller person).
- waist control is consider to be "lower body control" (suitable for shorter person).

That's fine. Most people can't stand up straight if someone is hanging of their head.

Posture broken.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You may use

- "double neck tie" to bend your opponent's head forward (which cause his spine to bend forward).
- "head lock" to bend your opponent's head sideway (which cause his spine to bend sideway).

IMO, to cause your opponent's spine to bend sideway will give him more trouble than to bend his spine forward.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's fine. Most people can't stand up straight if someone is hanging of their head.

Posture broken.

Many people can hold their opponent up in the air when their opponent apply "jump guard".

 

[Danny T]

Some random thoughts...

For those who don't know, the Thai version of the double collar control is often referred to as the "plum".

Just grabbing the head is not enough. You need to know how to apply the Thai clinch properly. This includes controlling the distance, breaking the opponent's structure, manipulating his balance, and countering the standard counters (which include driving in for takedowns).

The Thai clinch is useful not just for applying knees, but also for setting up elbows, other close range strikes, and some takedowns.

Properly applied, the Thai clinch is actually a pretty good platform for countering takedowns, but as I mentioned before, you need to know how to use it for that purpose.

You need to know when to give up the position and transition to something else. If you blindly hold on for dear life when your opponent starts winning the battle for structure and posture, then you can get into trouble. The best clinchers will transition smoothly between the double collar tie, other clinch positions, and disengaging from moment to moment as necessary.

As a couple of people noted, there is a problem in street application in that the position is not good for monitoring for an opponent pulling out a blade. Not saying you can't use the clinch, but you don't want to hang out there very long, especially if the opponent can maintain sufficient posture long enough to deploy a knife and you can't see his hands.

Wrestlers are good at countering head control, so if you want to use this clinch effectively against a wrestler, you need to be pretty skilled at it.

If you've never worked with someone who is good at the Thai clinch and been in that position, it's probably a mistake to explain the counters you think would work. Your ideas are ... unlikely to be as effective as you might theorize.

^^^^^^^^ AGREED!

I am willing to step out on a limb and state if 'most' of what you have seen is from the mma world as to thai clinch much is not a very good representation of it. There are variations of the thai clinch that are not the double neck tie type. A lot of what seems is upright positioning is because the other is very good at countering the breakdown of the structure.
Taught a muay thai workshop this weekend to a mma group with clinch being a part. Entering, controlling, and countering. Attacking with knees, elbows, and punches. Countering and preventing attacks with in the clinch, trips, sweeps, and takedowns within the clinch and exiting the clinch without taking damage or getting KOed.

Many were amazed with how little they could do when placed in a proper clinch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack.

Is this going to come up with every single technique?

Being that is a fight hopefully the knife would have been pulled

Many people can hold their opponent up in the air when their opponent apply "jump guard".

ha ha ha... dang. watching that stuff made me feel like I was the one who couldn't breath. If I was going to do that I wouldn't wrap my legs around the person. I would just drop the weight straight down forcing my opponent to bend at an awkward position.

 

[drop bear]

Many people can hold their opponent up in the air when their opponent apply "jump guard".

I will take your jump guard and raise you a flying triangle.