From Okinawa to Korea

[Dirty Dog]

I would disagree that's the only difference. The main difference for me is in the knee chamber position. For a back kick, the chamber is underneath the hips, knee pointing to the ground. For a turning side kick, it's chambered at atleast 90° to the standing leg (ideally more), out to the side. Of course the arm position and the amount of turn in the upper body (shoulders in a line to the target for the turning side kick and back almost completely facing the opponent for a back kick) are important too, but it's the chamber position that is for me the key difference.

I didn't say it was the only difference...
I'd say the chamber is also a major difference, but if you don't turn far enough, the chamber won't matter. Because you're not going to hit the target anyway. Which is more important? Flip a coin.

 

[WaterGal]

Well, we had the tournament this morning. It was an interesting experience. I’m glad we did it, but I’m not sure it’s the kind of thing we will do often.

They had us in groups based on age and rank. My 6yo daughter only had one other person to compete against for forms. (The only other white belt her age). She did very poorly (couldn’t remember how to start her form) but I’m not surprised because she has continually refused to practice with me. The other girl did somewhat poorly as well (went the wrong direction and didn’t always do the correct side) but overall was light years ahead of my daughter. Because there were only two kids, my daughter still got a silver medal. I’m glad my daughter is happy, but I think it was silly that she still got a medal. How is she supposed to learn to work hard for things if she still gets a medal for not working hard?

In my experience, which admittedly is only with local tournaments in my region of the country, for kids under 8, they usually make the divisions small enough that everybody gets a medal/trophy. And lower belt students are less likely to go to tournaments, so their divisions tend to be smaller anyway.

When we're talking about young beginners, I think the idea is to reward them for even having the guts to go try (because so many don't), and to encourage them to come back and try again next time. As she gets older and higher in rank, the number of competitors and level of competition will go up.

For my pattern, there were four of us competing. So not much competition. There were two of us white belts and there were two orange (which comes right after white in this association). I was nervous at first but I got to do my pattern last so that helped. I chose to do the same pattern as the orange belts did but did a much better job. Both of them got mixed up in at least one part and did the wrong move. Also, neither one had any power or snap to their techniques. The other white belt did the white belt pattern and did a good job for what it was but still no power and snap (though more understandable for her I think). Anyhow, I won first but there wasn’t much competition. It was supposed to be all adult colored belts but the one higher rank they had they moved to compete with the junior black belts because there was such a gap (she was several ranks above orange). I’m pleased with myself for doing well. I knew I mailed my pattern, but I would feel better about it if there had been more competition. I’m not a fan of participation awards and this is what that felt like. The head judge did ask me if I had prior experience in another system. Not sure if that was due to me doing something well or if my stances are still a bit off. My husband took video so I’ll have to go back and watch it.

That's about what I would've expected, honestly. There usually aren't a lot of adult color belt women at tournaments I've been to. The fact that, at white belt, you had a lot of power in your technique is probably what made them ask. Adult beginners often are kind of awkward and stiff when they're getting started.

I did very poorly with the board breaks. They had us break two boards back to back (so double the thickness) twice. Both with a spinning side kick. Do one, run to the other side and do another. I got nervous about the double board thing because I hadn’t tried that yet. Then I didn’t like up properly (my instruction told me where to stand last time so I never thought about it). I stood square to the boards and when I turned, well I wasn’t square anymore. We were also told that speed counted so... I didn’t break either double board. Very frustrating. The second double board I missed so badly I scraped up the inside of my foot on the side of the board. There were only three of us adult colored belts competing though (myself and the two orange belts from earlier) so I got a participation award... I mean medal. I actually ended up in second (maybe because my form was better than the other orange belt that didn’t break any?). One of the orange belts broke one set of boards the other didn’t break any.

That seems challenging for a low belt group, honestly. When I've seen breaking at tournaments, they usually just let you do whatever breaks you want, within certain requirements (i.e. don't break things that are't wood, or they might give you a list of pre-approved techniques), and judge based on technical merits and difficulty.

Sparring was weird. Rather than pair my daughter up with the other white belt girl, she had to spar with two taller boys who were higher ranks than her. Actually, they did all the kids in groups of three and did a round robin thing. So everyone medaled. Again, not impressed though my daughter was glad to get another medal. Third place. I’m more proud that she managed to score two points on one of the boys (the second one she sparred). She really needs to learn how to block.

That's.... odd. Was the other white belt girl much bigger or smaller than her? Usually, they group students by age, weight class, rank and gender, but might move someone around to a different group if that person is much bigger, smaller, etc than the other kids in their group. They don't usually put boys and girls together for sparring, though, I don't recall seeing that before.

 

[Michele123]

That's.... odd. Was the other white belt girl much bigger or smaller than her? Usually, they group students by age, weight class, rank and gender, but might move someone around to a different group if that person is much bigger, smaller, etc than the other kids in their group. They don't usually put boys and girls together for sparring, though, I don't recall seeing that before.

The other girl was slightly more stocky than my daughter (which isn’t hard. She’s like a skeleton) but otherwise they were the same age and height. They broke all the kids up into groups of three and did round robin so each kid sparred twice and each kid medaled. The only thing I can think of is that they would have had to put one boy with two girls if they kept the girls together and didn’t want to make it too easy on that boy?



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[Dirty Dog]

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the issue of participation awards.

It's not at all uncommon for merge groups who were initially separated by age/rank/whatever. A tourney is more fun if you have more matches. The last time I entered a tourney, there was only one other person signed up for my group (geriatric fat man) so I fought in the 30-35 yo black belt class. Even though I had children as old as my opponents, it was a lot more fun. Just enjoy the competition and learn from it. That's what really matters.

 

[skribs]

In my experience, which admittedly is only with local tournaments in my region of the country, for kids under 8, they usually make the divisions small enough that everybody gets a medal/trophy. And lower belt students are less likely to go to tournaments, so their divisions tend to be smaller anyway.

At the local tournaments I go to, they pretty much try to get everyone a medal. The problem is, 1 group out of 20 or so will have more than 4 people in it, and the winners are Gold (1st), Silver (2nd), Bronze (Tied 3rd and 3rd). If there's a 5th and 6th person, then they don't get a medal. In a lot of cases, one or both bronze winners lose their only fight, just like the 5th and 6th place winners, but they got a first round bye thanks to random assignment.

Personally, I'm against participation trophies and medals. However, if you're at the point where your tournament has 97% of the participants getting a medal...just give everyone a smegging medal!

 

[Michele123]

I’m enjoying Taekwando and looking forward to testing in a couple weeks. But... I still miss karate. Mostly, I find I miss the joint locks and takedowns. The monthly falling classes were always fun and confidence boosting too. (Actually those helped me in real life a few times falling on the ice). Does Taekwando have any of these things later on perhaps? Kicking is fun, and I do enjoy it, but I like more than just kicking.


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[ravenofthewood]

I’m enjoying Taekwando and looking forward to testing in a couple weeks. But... I still miss karate. Mostly, I find I miss the joint locks and takedowns. The monthly falling classes were always fun and confidence boosting too. (Actually those helped me in real life a few times falling on the ice). Does Taekwando have any of these things later on perhaps? Kicking is fun, and I do enjoy it, but I like more than just kicking.


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It depends on the school you train at. My dojang practices breakfalls and shoulder rolls every Tuesday. Our self defense incorporates joint locks even at white belt, and takedowns starting at green stripe (third belt). I hope they are coming soon in the curriculum for you.

 

[andyjeffries]

I’m enjoying Taekwando and looking forward to testing in a couple weeks. But... I still miss karate. Mostly, I find I miss the joint locks and takedowns. The monthly falling classes were always fun and confidence boosting too. (Actually those helped me in real life a few times falling on the ice). Does Taekwando have any of these things later on perhaps? Kicking is fun, and I do enjoy it, but I like more than just kicking.

We do joint locks, takedowns, throws, grappling etc as part of Taekwondo. The Kukkiwon announced their official self-defence syllabus on the Master Instructor Course in Korea in 2016 (and it was also taught on the US course in 2017, so it wasn't a flash in the pan) and these are all part of Taekwondo. So hopefully your dojang will do them with you at some point.

 

[Michele123]

Tonight’s class was a lot of fun. The first half was warm ups and agility exercises. It was really neat. I love learning and working in techniques, but I really like working on the whole person movement as well. I tripped over my own feet during the agility exercises a few times but I could really see the usefulness in them. I want to try to duplicate it during my at home practices but I don’t know if I have a long enough space. Oh, it was kind of neat too because our instructor cranked up some upbeat music while we were doing this and I totally felt like we were in a training montage for a martial arts movie. Haha. (Back in the day, I picked up martial arts the first time with the desire to use it in the movie business).

After that we worked on our material for testing coming up. I’ll be double testing and I got through my material in just a few minutes with no need for corrections which seemed to surprise not only the black belt that was working with me but also our instructor. I guess it’s uncommon for people to catch on so quickly? I don’t know if it is my karate background or if it is uncommon for people to practice daily at home?

Anyhow, I came home feeling pretty good about class. I really liked those agility exercises.


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[pdg]

I want to try to duplicate it during my at home practices but I don’t know if I have a long enough space.

So increase the agility requirement by making the 'track' circular, or zigzag, or add random corners/turns...

Or go outside - the world is your dojang

I guess it’s uncommon for people to catch on so quickly? I don’t know if it is my karate background or if it is uncommon for people to practice daily at home?

A bit of both, mainly the latter.

For (imo) the majority it's a hobby, it doesn't have the importance in their lives to dedicate extra time to. They'll learn something, go home and life takes over, then next class they have to learn it again.

I'm very into the theoretical side of things, I'll sit and read, watch videos, ask questions. Like my "U shaped block" question - when I asked about it last night I got told "I'm surprised a 4th kup knows there's different terms"...

My superior knowledge doesn't make me a superior person though, it just means I've chosen to make it a higher priority in my life.

There are people who can perform the techniques far better than me, but not be able to name them (in any language).

Then there are people who are 'worse' at the physical application and the theoretical knowledge - but they're trying.

 

[_Simon_]

Tonight’s class was a lot of fun. The first half was warm ups and agility exercises. It was really neat. I love learning and working in techniques, but I really like working on the whole person movement as well. I tripped over my own feet during the agility exercises a few times but I could really see the usefulness in them. I want to try to duplicate it during my at home practices but I don’t know if I have a long enough space. Oh, it was kind of neat too because our instructor cranked up some upbeat music while we were doing this and I totally felt like we were in a training montage for a martial arts movie. Haha. (Back in the day, I picked up martial arts the first time with the desire to use it in the movie business).

After that we worked on our material for testing coming up. I’ll be double testing and I got through my material in just a few minutes with no need for corrections which seemed to surprise not only the black belt that was working with me but also our instructor. I guess it’s uncommon for people to catch on so quickly? I don’t know if it is my karate background or if it is uncommon for people to practice daily at home?

Anyhow, I came home feeling pretty good about class. I really liked those agility exercises.


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Ah that sounds like a fun class. I've never done that much agility work before! Did you guys use the agility ladders? I've tried a variation of that (just making a makeshift ladder with my own obstacles hehe) when prepping for a tournament last year, also did plyometrics too which was really interesting, but great fun to work with, and can definitely see the value!

 

[Michele123]

Last class was great. My instructor had me run through all my material and then had me woke on my breaks for my test on a rebreakable board. It’s definitely more challenging when I have to figure out where to stand on my own. I think I’ve figured it out for both of them though. I still have a week and a half until testing. My daughter’s test is in just a week though. She’s going for her first stripe on her white belt which is 1/3 of the material for a full belt. I’m not sure she’s going to pass because she refuses to practice when I’m around but maybe.


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[Michele123]

Testing is over.

My 6yo DD had a freak out on test day. It turns out when I’d been continually suggesting she practice because I was worried about her form, it really messed with her self-confidence. At test time she couldn’t do anything but run away crying. I had also try d to encourage her by promising to buy one of those belt racks for her if she passed her test on the first try. Note to self: things I see as motivating, DD sees as pressure.

Anyhow, she was allowed to try again at her next lesson and she actually did really well. Between her test date and the date she actually tested I made sure to back off and not ask her to practice or talk about her form or anything. I don’t usually get to watch her during her lessons and didn’t realize how much she knew. I was presently surprised and very proud of her. Especially that she was willing to try to test again so soon after her freak out. She earned a stripe which means she knows 1/3 of the material towards 8th gup (sp?)

My instructor had me double test. I didn’t know exactly what to expect as my frame of reference is the karate I took as a teenager. There were never double testings (but tests were available every month the first class of the month so there was no need to hold back a student who was progressing just because it wasn’t testing time yet).

In my old style, there was the possibility of a double promotion. In the form of karate I studied, while there were forms (kata) and techniques learned at every rank, more weight was placed on the level you executed your techniques. For example,

white belts testing for 7th kyu were only expected to do the techniques correctly. There should be no speed or power to them.
7th testing for 6th was starting to add some speed.
6th testing for 5th added “hip motion.”
And so on.

In the 7 years or so that I trained, there were only 2 instances of a double promotion. For myself, when I tested for 6th kyu, I had naturally picked up “hip motion” from watching the higher ranks and was double promoted to 5th kyu instead. There was another gentleman that was double promoted from 4th - 2nd kyu if memory serves. That was it though.

So, to double test, I assumed it would be a test that combined the material for both belts. Nope. Instead, I tested for 8th gup, with all the ceremony and rigor, was awarded the rank, changed into that belt, and immediately began to test again for 7th gup. Even the items that were also a part of the 8th gup test I had to do again for the 7th gup test, even though the tests were mere minutes apart. Not the most efficient use of time but I get it.

Anyhow, the test went well. Other than being exhausted from going through everything so quickly, the test went well. I nailed both tests’ board breaks on the first try. That was really the only thing I wasn’t certain about because I didn’t know how to incorporate practicing that at home and because I failed that at the tournament.

One thing that is interesting to me is that testing is not cumulative. In karate, each test involved *everything* from the previous test plus new stuff. Apparently in Taekwando that’s different. You only get tested on the new stuff you’ve learned since your last rank. It’s strange to me but it certainly explains why there are so many black belts that don’t remember certain things when he’s asking for them to help teach.

Anyhow, I’m falling asleep so I guess this is all for tonight.


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[Dirty Dog]

One thing that is interesting to me is that testing is not cumulative. In karate, each test involved *everything* from the previous test plus new stuff. Apparently in Taekwando that’s different. You only get tested on the new stuff you’ve learned since your last rank. It’s strange to me but it certainly explains why there are so many black belts that don’t remember certain things when he’s asking for them to help teach.

Congrats to both of you.
Allow me to assure you that in my experience, testing is, in fact, cumulative in most TKD schools. Certainly it is in ours.
While black belts are human and may have a brain fart on some material at any time, if they actually don't know the material, then they should (in my opinion) take off the belt.

 

[_Simon_]

Testing is over.

My 6yo DD had a freak out on test day. It turns out when I’d been continually suggesting she practice because I was worried about her form, it really messed with her self-confidence. At test time she couldn’t do anything but run away crying. I had also try d to encourage her by promising to buy one of those belt racks for her if she passed her test on the first try. Note to self: things I see as motivating, DD sees as pressure.

Anyhow, she was allowed to try again at her next lesson and she actually did really well. Between her test date and the date she actually tested I made sure to back off and not ask her to practice or talk about her form or anything. I don’t usually get to watch her during her lessons and didn’t realize how much she knew. I was presently surprised and very proud of her. Especially that she was willing to try to test again so soon after her freak out. She earned a stripe which means she knows 1/3 of the material towards 8th gup (sp?)

My instructor had me double test. I didn’t know exactly what to expect as my frame of reference is the karate I took as a teenager. There were never double testings (but tests were available every month the first class of the month so there was no need to hold back a student who was progressing just because it wasn’t testing time yet).

In my old style, there was the possibility of a double promotion. In the form of karate I studied, while there were forms (kata) and techniques learned at every rank, more weight was placed on the level you executed your techniques. For example,

white belts testing for 7th kyu were only expected to do the techniques correctly. There should be no speed or power to them.
7th testing for 6th was starting to add some speed.
6th testing for 5th added “hip motion.”
And so on.

In the 7 years or so that I trained, there were only 2 instances of a double promotion. For myself, when I tested for 6th kyu, I had naturally picked up “hip motion” from watching the higher ranks and was double promoted to 5th kyu instead. There was another gentleman that was double promoted from 4th - 2nd kyu if memory serves. That was it though.

So, to double test, I assumed it would be a test that combined the material for both belts. Nope. Instead, I tested for 8th gup, with all the ceremony and rigor, was awarded the rank, changed into that belt, and immediately began to test again for 7th gup. Even the items that were also a part of the 8th gup test I had to do again for the 7th gup test, even though the tests were mere minutes apart. Not the most efficient use of time but I get it.

Anyhow, the test went well. Other than being exhausted from going through everything so quickly, the test went well. I nailed both tests’ board breaks on the first try. That was really the only thing I wasn’t certain about because I didn’t know how to incorporate practicing that at home and because I failed that at the tournament.

One thing that is interesting to me is that testing is not cumulative. In karate, each test involved *everything* from the previous test plus new stuff. Apparently in Taekwando that’s different. You only get tested on the new stuff you’ve learned since your last rank. It’s strange to me but it certainly explains why there are so many black belts that don’t remember certain things when he’s asking for them to help teach.

Anyhow, I’m falling asleep so I guess this is all for tonight.


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Congratulations on your grading guys! And yeah that's awesome for your daughter to come back and do her grading, shows a lot of courage. I hope she's not discouraged, and yeah that's cool that you learned that about yourself and also put yourself in her shoes.

And we'll done on double grading Michele, fantastic!! Yeah every style has different standards and requirements for if someone was to double grade, but obviously they saw that potential and skill level in you already or else it wouldn't have been offered. I double graded in karate many years ago, but I don't think they allowed mid-higher level grades (from 7th/6th kyu and up) to double grade.

You can relax now and enjoy that you've made a big step on your journey

 

[Kinghercules]

Hello,
I studied Shutokan (a small offshoot of Shotokan) as a teen in the 90’s and earned 1st Dan before moving off to college. I continued to train when home, but that was just short stints. Then in 2004 I married and we both went to graduate school. At that point I ceased training altogether.

Fast-forward to now. My daughter (almost 6) and I started Tae Kwan Do back in October. Because I have smaller children waiting for me at home, I can’t stay and ask all the questions I want after each class. I was hoping maybe this thread could serve as a place for me to ask questions and just talk about the transition from Okinawa karate to Korean Tae Kwan Do.



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I know its been a min since Ive been in here but....Im back!
Ive read a few post in this form but not all and Im sure all have already said why and how TKD is connected to karate. But this one caught my attention because of the SHUDOKAN. My instructor, Ki Whang Kim, trained under Toyama Kanken. So eventho his school said TKD we trained like the Japanese.

So just as many others have already have mentioned its all about who you trained under. About 90% of TKD schools in my area (Washington DC) are Kukkiwon based and thats because of the push in the late 70's to be more of a Olympic sport. But before the Kukkiwon (1973) TKD was purely street fighting. So its hard to find schools now a days that still have that early style training. Eventho my instructor trained under Toyama Kanken our style isnt Shudokan. Its Tang Soo Do. People always ask why are we doing Japanese forms if our style is Korean. Buts NOT a Japanese form. Its Korean.

What pisses me off is how people dont understand the meaning of the word "evolve". The Kukkiwon stylist (World TKD Federation) and the ITF (Gen Choi's TKD) did move away form the Japanese style of training and created their own system of forms. While some traditionalist like Ki Whang Kim, Won Kuk Lee, Chun Sang Sup, & Lee Kyo Yoon stayed with the Japanese forms because they didnt like the new ones. In fact Gen Choi came to the USA to show Ki Whang Kim his new forms and have him teach them but Ki Whang told Gen Choi straight up no, that his forms were useless and made no sense. So for us Ki Whang Kim stuck with what he learned from Toyama and made adjustments based on his PHILOSOPHICAL approach to fighting. Which is what he was suppose to do and where other (I believe) Korean masters failed at doing. This is where I do respect Gen Choi's contribution to the Korean arts because he came up with a complete different set of forms. Where as you see in most Tang Soo Do schools their approach to forms and how they do their forms is the EXACTLY the same as Shotokan. There's another discussion somewhere on here where they are talking about Jion and the Shotokan person said that they do that form at brown belt and they dont understand why the Koreans are doing it at 5th or 4th Dan. Thats because the APPROACH and REASON of why we do the form IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be the same reason the Japanese do the form!! Because if it is then you might as well say that your are doing Shotokan and not TSD. They way we doing our forms and our approach to doing forms is completely different than any other Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo school that Ive seen.

So for us (students of Ki Whang Kim) our understanding of forms is different. For the simple fact that Ki Whang had trained under Toyama Kanken and he had trained in China when he was stationed there, he developed his own approach to doing forms. Our lineage is a direct line to Toyama. So we train karate but we fight non-Olympic TKD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I..........................stayed with the Japanese forms because they didnt like the new ones.
[
I

stuck with what he learned

[/QUOTE]

IMO for those who chose to stay with what they knew it was more about sticking with what they learned - not having to learn new stuff as opposed to "Not Liking" something they would only have passing familiarity with. Therein was part of the Geniuss of KKW TKD . accepting all systems and taking the long view of gradually switching to a single system whereas General Choi required all to learn a single system from the early days. (Yes, I am aware there were a very few exceptions)

 

[Kinghercules]

stuck with what he learned

IMO for those who chose to stay with what they knew it was more about sticking with what they learned - not having to learn new stuff as opposed to "Not Liking" something they would only have passing familiarity with. Therein was part of the Geniuss of KKW TKD . accepting all systems and taking the long view of gradually switching to a single system whereas General Choi required all to learn a single system from the early days. (Yes, I am aware there were a very few exceptions)[/QUOTE]

Ok that nice in your opinion but Im tell you what happen. Ki Whang had Mike Warren, Albert Cheeks and a few other students learn all of Gen Choi forms. This is what Albert Cheeks told me directly, that after a week of training in them KWK decided not to teach them because they didnt make sense. They all went out to dinner; Ki Whang Kim, Gen Choi, Henry Cho, Tiger Kim, Duk Sang Song and a few other high ranking Koreans and thats where KWK told Gen Choi he did like his forms and wasnt gonna teach them.

 

[TrueJim]

Therein was part of the Geniuss of KKW TKD...

I think another bit of the Kukkiwon cleverness was initially keeping the core curriculum to a bare minimum: "here's a comparatively small set of forms, and a comparatively small set of techniques...and as far as we're concerned that's the extent of what taekwondo is -- add whatever else you want in your school, teach it however you want, we only care about the minimal core". The down-side of that approach is that you get some uneven quality: some schools teaching just the minimal core, while other schools add a whole bunch of great stuff. The up-side is that it's an easy pill to swallow for school owners, so you get widespread adoption.

 

[Earl Weiss]

IMO for those who chose to stay with what they knew it was more about sticking with what they learned - not having to learn new stuff as opposed to "Not Liking" something they would only have passing familiarity with. )

Ok that nice in your opinion but Im tell you what happen. Ki Whang had Mike Warren, Albert Cheeks and a few other students learn all of Gen Choi forms. This is what Albert Cheeks told me directly, that after a week of training in them KWK decided not to teach them because they didnt make sense. They all went out to dinner; Ki Whang Kim, Gen Choi, Henry Cho, Tiger Kim, Duk Sang Song and a few other high ranking Koreans and thats where KWK told Gen Choi he did like his forms and wasnt gonna teach them.[/QUOTE]

OK, so in your opinion, (forget for the moment what form set we are talking about) 7 days of training (almost 1000 moves) is enough time to learn and make an in depth analysis of 24 forms (or perhaps at that time there were still only 20.)

Also, do you disagree that often there is a dislike and resistance to change?