Force Flow skill transmission

[JustSomePerson]

I suppose people "guess" because on the one hand you wish to bring it to the people, make it understandable, show it to be simple; but on the other you and/or Hendrick will always dismiss any understanding that anyone else brings as completly trivial. On this thread for example.

That's ok, but then when asked for clear explanation it isn't available.

It appears that you wish it to be deep, esoteric and profound, but also highly practical and realistic. Palpable in real combat but also very hard to see or define. Accessable to anyone, but also a closely guarded secret that only the few understand. These desires seem a bit contradictory, and I think suggest that it is more about marketing than anything else.

It goes round and round like this, with you appearing to get progressively more angry (while still pumping out the videos) and Hendrick getting progresively more difficult to understand (while apparently trying his best to make it understandable).

Again it is up to you to show otherwise, if you wish to do so. I would say that if you wish it to be secret then don't talk about it. If you wish to make it public then talk straight. If you wish to sell it then maybe continue as you are, but be careful of the image you project.

In my view it only seems esoteric and profound to you becasue you perhaps refuse to take a closer look at the physics a la 'western' thought and have even refused to let people experienced with what Alan teaches, show you in person in a friendly manner.

Like some certain others it is my view that you are intentionally disruptive and that this is shown across many a different web forum over many years. I remember reading some mma forums a long time ago and found that posters there were the same as others on the KFO forums and that in that thread on the mma forums, they discussed how best to disrupt 'wing chun' forums and to intentionally sully any meaningful and constructive dialogue.

It could just be, however, a similar agenda but from the perspective of lineage bashing and for the sake of agendas there. I will say no more on this matter beyond noting that your posting behaviour matches others and that it is perhaps the case that behind the scenes you work in cahoots to sully meaningful debate by offering up intentional disruptive obstinance. It is a shame that just as a certain group brought KFO forums to a disruptive end, that that group has then targeted these forums with a similar aim in mind.

 

[guy b.]

From what I've read from the pair of you I would have to say that no, you do not understand physics and the material sciences and the way forces operate on the body internally and how they can be best managed

I think that I have a reasonable understanding of the maths of vectors, angular momentum, linear momentum and how these apply to the human body. I don't think that it is important to be a master of physics or materials science in order to be a martial artist. I don't think that MA systems were created by people looking at vector diagrams and calculating applied forces. I think that they were created by feeling, doing, and by observing effects.

I think that most of the discussion and analysis of this kind of thing on MA forums is pseudo science, i.e. pointing out obvious truisms like elastic materials and structures can load and release, angular momentum is higher the further out from the axis you go, loaded structures without a ground force vector tend to collapse, a shorter lever requires more torque to do the same work. That kind of thing. It is merely putting a scientific gloss on things that everyone understands implicitly. I think that mostly it is done in order to try and claim authority, as on this thread. There is no need to talk in this way when dealing with what are simple and easily understood ideas.

VT contains a large range of structured and progressive drilling, the point of which is to create and build the structure, internal musculature and body movement required to apply concussive force to an opponent using the hands. It is self correcting and does not require understanding of esoteric ideas in order to work. It is genius. I don't know what force flow is offering that improves upon this?

Its not my job to educate you both on the science

Why are you here posting about "science" then?

 

[JustSomePerson]

[...]
Why are you here posting about "science" then?

Providing key words is very much like providing a bibliography; its for you to follow up and not for me to educate you more fully. The choice is yours, either read up or don't.

 

[Pat M]

Hi WCA great topic,
I used to be part of a group that specialized in this deep energy approach. My previous Sifu (cult leader) came upon this himself over time, it was not taught by someone else. It was referred to as "gung lik"
The stance used for this was very earthed however only when required, it was not something that could be seen, being on the receiving end of it was like having your your energy sucked up by a vampire. I was not and by no means am an expert however it is interesting now being at another school as it works. This is not a strength thing however it was hard on my joints because of the pressure during the kneeing chi sau.

My take on the OP would be both A and B as generally you are taught followed by more learning as you teach.

Regards further discussions:
Who can be more authentic than the next guy has been an age old battle, marketing has been around for as long as there has been a market, the timing depends on the socioeconomic climate of the location. Today it is every where. There is very little that is new so revival is everywhere.

 

[SaulGoodman]

No GUYB you don't automatically obtain these skills by just practicing "VT". If that was the case do you really think the amount of material produced by Alan et al would be necessary? These force flow skills as I understand them are CONCIOUSLY trained and refined over a period of time. Your simplistic views of force flow are ignorant and insulting to people who invest time, money and effort to obtain these skills.

Just because you can't personally see any worth or validity in training force flow doesn't mean it's a waste of time.

Who are you to judge people who put out verifiable material when you don't have the balls to put up one clip of yourself doing your invincible "VT".

From what I can gather you seem to have a personal problem with Alan Orr and his methods. Any chance you get to discredit him and you're there like a shot. I suspect he might have perhaps bested you in chi Sao or something at some point and ever since have been butt hurt about it. I think you are a pencil neck keyboard warrior who would sh$t himself if Alan or any of his people called you on the crap you spout face to face, But that can't happen right because no one knows who you are, hence the reluctance to put up any clips in case you get recognized...

 

[LFJ]

From what I've read from the pair of you I would have to say that no, you do not understand physics and the material sciences and the way forces operate on the body internally and how they can be best managed.

Really? From what you've read from me?

I haven't ever discussed this topic in any detail on the forums. So just what are you talking about?

That I say it's a basic concept? Do you think calling it basic diminishes the science of it or something?

 

[LFJ]

My fighters have had over 200 MMA fights and I train professional fighters with the skills we teach. Training does not look like application as the platform changes. But the skills are expressed. Just because they can't see it or understand it doesn't mean anything.

Well, Alan, you say in your videos that the "bridge" skill of unbalancing the opponent and opening them up for strikes as you show in chi-sau is force flow in use and directly applicable to free fighting.

One need not understand it or see force flowing through you in order to see its effect on the opponent's body as they're bounced around. Yet, when asked for a timestamp from any of your team's numerous fight videos, you can't do it.

You either avoid the question, call insulting names, or invite people to feel it in person, which doesn't actually demonstrate that it works in free fighting.

 

[Grenadier]

Admin's Note:

Please keep this discussion civil. While attacking someone's argument is generally tolerated, attacking someone personally is not.

 

[guy b.]

Providing key words is very much like providing a bibliography; its for you to follow up and not for me to educate you more fully. The choice is yours, either read up or don't.

You haven't said anything that seems beyond normal everyday VT, and therefore no reason to get the physics text books out.

 

[Phobius]

You guys are all going offtopic.

Question is, what is the value of learning Force Flow rather than practising and training other areas such as body structure and power generation? Everyone doing WC will learn things about force vectors and how storing/transferring energy as well as directing it to floor just to have an equal force move back through the body and into your opponent.

This is simple physics which would require a masters degree to explain. Easily understood but hard, or near impossible, to do math on.

But what does Force Flow add that those other elements don't? What is it besides what I just wrote? I am am interested in what people consider Force Flow to be.

One can argue, just train it and learn. But this is something which HS said will require time and patience to learn properly. Not by reading a book. Do we want to spend all that time and money chasing something when it is unknown what it will give us, unknown how it works, unknown when it is applicable, unknown what it is and unknown if not already taught and learnt through normal training.

My answer is 'I need more information'.

 

[guy b.]

No GUYB you don't automatically obtain these skills by just practicing "VT". If that was the case do you really think the amount of material produced by Alan et al would be necessary?

I have seen no reason to suppose that it is necessary beyond what the normal VT system entrains.

Some specifics would be helpful.

These force flow skills as I understand them are CONCIOUSLY trained and refined over a period of time. Your simplistic views of force flow are ignorant and insulting to people who invest time, money and effort to obtain these skills.

How would you know that as someone who has not trained these skills? The way force flow is presented is contradictory and needs further explanation.

Just because you can't personally see any worth or validity in training force flow doesn't mean it's a waste of time.

I don't say that I can't see any worth in it. I don't yet see anything in force flow that is different or better than what is trained in the normal VT system. I think that VT is worth learning, certainly.

Who are you to judge people who put out verifiable material

I am not putting out public videos advertising a method which is an imporovement on conventional VT. When I do so then feel free to ask questions.

you don't have the balls to put up one clip of yourself doing your invincible "VT"

Have you put up videos of your VT?

I suspect he might have perhaps bested you in chi Sao or something at some point and ever since have been butt hurt about it. I think you are a pencil neck keyboard warrior who would sh$t himself if Alan or any of his people called you on the crap you spout face to face, But that can't happen right because no one knows who you are, hence the reluctance to put up any clips in case you get recognized

This is just trolling. Please stop.

 

[guy b.]

Question is, what is the value of learning Force Flow rather than practising and training other areas such as body structure and power generation? Everyone doing WC will learn things about force vectors and how storing/transferring energy as well as directing it to floor just to have an equal force move back through the body and into your opponent.

This is simple physics which would require a masters degree to explain. Easily understood but hard, or near impossible, to do math on.

But what does Force Flow add that those other elements don't? What is it besides what I just wrote? I am am interested in what people consider Force Flow to be.

I agree, this is the question

 

[guy b.]

Really? From what you've read from me?

I haven't ever discussed this topic in any detail on the forums. So just what are you talking about?

That I say it's a basic concept? Do you think calling it basic diminishes the science of it or something?

It is basic in that it is fundamental and takes a long time to develop. This is why it is practiced so much in VT

 

[guy b.]

In my view it only seems esoteric and profound to you becasue you perhaps refuse to take a closer look at the physics a la 'western' thought and have even refused to let people experienced with what Alan teaches, show you in person in a friendly manner.

People have shown me what they understand of it in a friendly manner.

Like some certain others it is my view that you are intentionally disruptive and that this is shown across many a different web forum over many years. I remember reading some mma forums a long time ago and found that posters there were the same as others on the KFO forums and that in that thread on the mma forums, they discussed how best to disrupt 'wing chun' forums and to intentionally sully any meaningful and constructive dialogue.

Seems an odd thing to say. I have no knowledge of this.

It could just be, however, a similar agenda but from the perspective of lineage bashing and for the sake of agendas there. I will say no more on this matter beyond noting that your posting behaviour matches others and that it is perhaps the case that behind the scenes you work in cahoots to sully meaningful debate by offering up intentional disruptive obstinance. It is a shame that just as a certain group brought KFO forums to a disruptive end, that that group has then targeted these forums with a similar aim in mind.

I have nothing to do with any such group. Do you wish to take the matter up with the moderators?

 

[JowGaWolf]

So its not simple as they think.

This is internal martial technique in a nutshell. People often simplify it so that others can get a general idea but there's like 1000 internal things going on at once but on the outside it looks like nothing much is happening. When my internal skill set kicks in (because I can't always get it to work at will) it's like I get a visual of everything that is going on with my opponent. His stance, his movement, what strike is going to come next based on how his body is balanced or not balanced. Sometimes it's almost like seeing with through my hands. It's a strange sense of awareness that makes it seem like 5 seconds have passed, but in reality your body is picking up tons of information in less than a second. Now if people tired to explain the actual experience of being able to use an internal martial art technique then they will begin to sound crazy, sort of like what I sounded like explaining my own experiences just then.

I don't think internal martial art techniques can be fully explained by science and mechanics. I don't know what biological science would explain "seeing with your hands" descriptions or time slowing down descriptions. In the past I know some contributed the "slow down in time" effect to adrenaline, but in martial arts, these moments come during relaxed and calm states, which is totally different than being pumped up with energy.

I agree 100% that it's not simple as showing force vector. There's just too much that goes on in internal martial arts before the push or punch is thrown.

 

[JowGaWolf]

NO I did not take anything from Tai Chi at all. Why do people guess all the time?

Because it looks exactly like Tai Chi (the fighting systems not the exercise stuff). I'm looking at what you do and I see my Tai Chi drills that we do in class. Not only that I'm seeing and hearing some of the same things that my Sifu explained in Tai Chi. This is why I guess, because it looks like what I train.

At one point your demo looked like Tai Chi push hands. If you didn't take it from Tai Chi then you have discovered, on your own, the same concepts of Tai Chi and most internal martial arts, which would then explain why it looks like "bad Tai Chi" to me. I'm not saying it's "bad WC" but it would qualify as bad "Tai Chi."

If you don't take Tai Chi or some type of internal martial art then I would highly recommend it, because it will help you get a deeper understanding of the "force flow" that you speak of and I think it will actually help you deliver your "force flow" better. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to fight with Tai Chi techniques. I'm saying to use your deeper understanding of how Tai Chi directs force to help you with your "force flow" concepts. Because from where I'm sitting with Tai Chi experience that's exactly where it looks like you are going naturally with your "force flow."

If you have never taken Tai Chi or an Internal martial art system then you have no idea of how closely what you are doing looks like that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know Alan but know of several of his fighters and I especially know Pete Irving who runs one of Alan's fight teams and credits Alan as a mentor. Pete first fought on the very first show we did in 2003, as well as the first Pride & Glory show we in again in 2003, he's fought on our shows twice since against good opponents in 2005 and 2006, He's since become an extremely knowledgeable and serious instructor so if he says Alan is good at what he does I'm positive he is.

For me I don't care about good or how many fights someone has done. That's besides the point. I'm more after the exchange of knowledge and understanding. Sometimes what people know in their martial art will help you learn more about your own martial art and why things are done certain ways. I think trying to define good and bad, fights or no fights, tends to throw the topic off. In my opinion I wouldn't use it as a validation unless someone is specifically saying that they are using a specific technique in a free sparring or fighting scenario. Me winning a fight doesn't necessarily mean that I used a specific technique or concept to win the fights.

This is why I usually show a sparring video and point out a technique that was used vs full sparring video of me just getting the best out of someone. I don't have any competitive fighting videos as of yet, but hopefully next year, at the age of 44, I'll have some lei tai videos of me using my techniques against people who are younger and faster than me.

 

[geezer]

??? My guys have had over 200 fights and I teach professional fighters and my skill holds up very well under pressure. What more do you need?

I don't need anything more, Alan. Frankly, I'm quite impressed with what you've accomplished, and I think it's contributed a lot to all WC regardless of lineage.

My comments were directed at "Jow Ga", who frankly is a bit more on the "traditional" side than I am. Also, he is not a WC guy. Sorry if I gave offense. Not intended.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Guy B,

I think in terms of actual fighting, sure, there are things that should be prioritized e.g. fitness, sparring, technique, conditioning etc.

But I feel that as we get older, the above things start to become harder and harder to maintain and rely on. One of the advantages of an internal approach is that your power increases with age along with your understanding and refinement.

I would say that while you may think these are basic concepts, they are really not. They have to be taught, refined and practiced. I have found many other WC schools (that I have met and trained at) have a limited understanding of them which affects their power and structure (usually causing them to speed up to compensate). A lot of WC say they are doing these same things but are not. Plus it just has to be something that the school itself is focussed on to get good at, right? If a schools focus is body mechanics and force, they are going to get really good at it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thank you for your interest. I'm in NZ now. You should make a visit. I am based in Tauranga.

Force flow is one skill in layers of many others. Some on the forums are upset as they do not understand it so they are looking for holes and making statements on what they think, which is very limited.

Here is a link to a video from Hendrik addressing your question.

Please do not listen to the fools that post their ideas on what they think. They really have no idea.

My fighters have had over 200 MMA fights and I train professional fighters with the skills we teach. Training does not look like application as the platform changes. But the skills are expressed. Just because they can't see it or understand it doesn't mean anything.

I have posted lots of videos and over 900 lessons on my site now. So its not simple as they think.

OMG.. that was a rough video to watch. I'm going to get him some happy pills. lol. I have no idea of what "Reaction force injection means" what he said didn't make sense to me. This is what I understand when stepping. One foot is always rooted while the moving foot follows steps 1- 4.
1st Step:
2nd Root:
3rd: Maintain root, Release Root, or Drive Power from Root.
4th: Repeat Step #1

31:40 - 32:00 gives me my answer. He said that he didn't invent it, and that he just filled in the gaps, which is what I was thinking all along. He also mentions that he read a lot of books which is different from actually training the technique from someone who understands the technique. I didn't hear him say that he trained in an "internal fighting system" that really focuses on internal methods and techniques that deal with force. The saying that has been thrown around for years is that there is really no internal or external fighting system because all systems have both. The only thing is that the "internal" fighting systems are more aware of it and actually have techniques built around it. I've taken Tai Chi from my Sifu and I tried to learn from a book (before I met him). The one thing that I learned is that you can't learn and understand and apply internal techniques, methods, and concepts correctly without someone who knows it, to fill in the gaps that aren't covered by a video or by a book.

Until you get a solid understanding, learning from a book or a video is not going to be a good way to learn. Wing Chun's famous inch power is not unique to Wing Chun. It's also present in other fighting systems. I showed a video of me getting collapsed from punches that were less dramatic than the Wing Chun punch, and it took me a month to heal from those punches.

When he made the statement about Tai Chi 36:05 "having to shift thew weight from one leg to the other" or "always put the weight on one leg" tells me that he hasn't studied Tai Chi before nor does he understand some of the other systems out there. In an internal fighting system I can drive energy through my root and shift my weight without shifting the weight in my legs. This is especially true in Tai Chi and any student who has done Tai Chi Push hands quickly understands why sifting the weight as he describes is bad. A person who is good with sensing can pick up that shift in your balance and they will exploit it. If he actually studied Tai Chi from a knowledge teacher that knows how to use it to fight, then he would have never made that statement. If I only watch videos, instructional videos, and read books about Tai Chi then it would be easy for me to make such an assumption.

Thank you for posting the video. It has answered all of my questions about "Force Flow"