Force Flow skill transmission

[Alan Orr]

The sink rise is from white crane or similar. The purpose is power generation without much movement (i.e. without body momentum), required because of the strategy used in this kind of system. I don't see how using it in the VT system is optimal in terms of the strategies employed, or how it would mesh in terms of body mechanics already there.

I think Alan shows these things being effective in chi sau, and if you approach chi sau as a directly applicable thing then these ideas might work for you.

I don't think most white crane practitioners would see the sink rise as internal, per se. Personally I don't really understand what internal means, and how it is different to "external"?

I really have no idea why you just keep guessing and making statements referring to what I do when you posts all clearly should you do not understand it at all.

 

[Alan Orr]

I'd agree that this is an age-old debate. One side favoring tradition, and the other favoring practical application. Veering too far in either direction is a problem. And even most "traditional" arts have a rebel, reformer, or at least an innovator or two in their history. Imagine how a Hung Gar or Choy Ga purist would have viewed Jow Ga when it was a new art.

Sorry I can't shed light on the OP's question. From all the posts by Hendrick on this and that other forum, I gather that a lot of this comes from his own research. He feels it is old and authentic ...a restoration of stuff that has been lost. Many others would question this. If Alan Orr can apply some of these ideas practically, that would merit attention. Otherwise, I haven't been able to make heads or tails of Hendrick's many posts.

??? My guys have had over 200 fights and I teach professional fighters and my skill holds up very well under pressure. What more do you need?

 

[Alan Orr]

No I don't think meeting Alan will help me with this. Alan would possibly teach me how to do it and show how it works in fighting. But that's not what I am after right now. At a certain point I would be interested in meeting Alan. But there's enough to learn in what I already do for now.

meeting up for an exchanged would make things very clear

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Thanks for the invitation Alan, as I have been clear about, I am not downplaying the skill set at all or its effectiveness.

 

[Alan Orr]

I think force flow as they described it, is how force against a body is being managed. In Tai Chi we give with force or redirect force. We never try to go directly against force. From what Alan Orr was explaining it seems that he took Tai Chi concepts and created a different term to talk about how to apply similar concepts to Wing Chun.

For example, If you punch towards my center line, my goal would be to redirect your punch away from my center line. I have no interest in stopping it because redirecting it will allow me to counter and reduced the damage that I may take from the punch. A Wing Chun punch moves in one direction in a linear motion. That punch can only move in one direction (forward). Because of this there is no resistance to force being applied to the side of the punch so I'll be able to easily move it or redirect it with very little effort. Now take that same concept and apply it to the body. If you lean on me, I should give and flow with the force that you are using against me. Not only should I flow with it, I should help you generate more force than you are expecting to handle, by pulling on you. The pull will actually cause you to fall off balance giving me the opportunity to counter.

Sports like Judo, Shuai Jiao, wrestling, BJJ, Tai Chi, Akido and some others actually use similar concepts of dealing with force where the goal isn't to stop it but to let it flow with little resistance and in some cases increase the flow as a way to throw the person off balance. Here's a Wing Chun Example

Here's a Tai Chi Example

This is probably what influenced the concept of force flow.

take note of the similar jerky motion

NO I did not take anything from Tai Chi at all. Why do people guess all the time?

 

[Alan Orr]

It is definately doable. It is what wrestlers are doing when they keep straight back, bent knees, short arms, e.g. when pushing into the opponent. It is also what most wing chun would do in terms of stance and force vector when punching.

In terms of standup grappling it is of limited use because you can't realistically root all force to ground - it just changes too fast. You need to be more flexible. Alan would talk about "delinking" when pulled, i.e. losing connection, going limp, but it is overly simplistic try and categorise grappling in this kind of way. You need a more expansive approach.

In terms of striking, such a ground path can make sense in terms of some striking platforms, e.g. VT, in terms of force application.

But I assume that force flow must be more than this? I don't know what the goal of it is.

In much the same way your views on what I do is also very simplistic

 

[JustSomePerson]

When did he start conceding that?

I've always seen him responding to people who say they know what it is with "no, that's not it". [...] In that sense, I'd be surprised if any WC lineage didn't understand this basic concept [...] Otherwise, I'm pretty sure it's just a basic although core concept and they're wasting their time misapplying it in unrealistic ways.

Force vectoring is already understood quite well in VT (and implicitly by anyone extering any force successfully on any object). [...] What then is this idea adding? [...] What is the awesome skill that Alan makes work for him? Can you describe it?

From what I've read from the pair of you I would have to say that no, you do not understand physics and the material sciences and the way forces operate on the body internally and how they can be best managed.

You cannot take words like force flow or force vectors in isolation and what 'they add' is a little bit of a disingenuous question, and I say that acknowledging that it seems you both don't know the science bits all that well and are thus unable to even really judge those 'words' as isolated points to discuss.

Its not my job to educate you both on the science but I will suggest that you spend some time conducting your own research here as I think you will both find it useful. That is if your modus operandi is one of a genuine want to learn and to further your own understandings.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

meeting up for an exchanged would make things very clear

Again, thanks for that, but my original question is one you could probably answer right here as it is not about how to do 'force flow' which I totally understand is something that could not be done over a forum. I happen to be impressed with the skill and want to learn it.

Has Hendrik discovered this from his research or has he learned it from a teacher? What I am getting is that he kind of discovered it or revived it.

 

[Alan Orr]

Again, thanks for that, but my original question is one you could probably answer right here as it is not about how to do 'force flow' which I totally understand is something that could not be done over a forum. I happen to be impressed with the skill and want to learn it.

Has Hendrik discovered this from his research or has he learned it from a teacher? What I am getting is that he kind of discovered it or revived it.

Did you not watch the video I posted? Hendrik answers your questions

What is your name? What school do you train at in NZ?

 

[Phobius]

NO I did not take anything from Tai Chi at all. Why do people guess all the time?

So Alan, given that I don't condone the whole strategy of telling people what they can and can not know. Do you have a video you recommend that does not cost an arm and a leg (cost is always the case but not really feel the need to waste a fortune) that would actually explain Force Flow in good ways.

And do you consider an internal art such as Force Flow as something that can ever be taught over video? This last question is something I hold serious doubts in, and to learn how to punch, utilize body structure and knowing how to direct force going through my body it is unclear what the purpose of Force Flow is, especially given that it is constantly said it is not the same thing as what is currently learned in WC.

 

[Alan Orr]

Thanks for the invitation Alan, as I have been clear about, I am not downplaying the skill set at all or its effectiveness.

I am just saying the best way is to test it out and feel it

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

My name is Gray and I train CST here in Auckland. We are just a very small group but my teacher has been teaching here for about 10 years.

 

[Alan Orr]

So Alan, given that I don't condone the whole strategy of telling people what they can and can not know. Do you have a video you recommend that does not cost an arm and a leg (cost is always the case but not really feel the need to waste a fortune) that would actually explain Force Flow in good ways.

And do you consider an internal art such as Force Flow as something that can ever be taught over video? This last question is something I hold serious doubts in, and to learn how to punch, utilize body structure and knowing how to direct force going through my body it is unclear what the purpose of Force Flow is, especially given that it is constantly said it is not the same thing as what is currently learned in WC.

My blueprint course is cheap and has 65 lessons, plus loads of over courses. So its not an easy answer. My book also covers a lot of information on it.

You check out looks of free clips on my you tube channel

In the end if you want to learn you have to put time and effort in.

 

[Alan Orr]

My name is Gray and I train CST here in Auckland. We are just a very small group but my teacher has been teaching here for about 10 years.

I'm up in a few weeks I think as I have a fighter on a show. Would be cool to meet your group.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Sure! As long as keep it friendly!

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I am not a fighter by any means!

 

[wckf92]

according to HS noone can understand what it is without his teachings.

EXACTLY
Or even discuss it with him.

 

[guy b.]

say if we are rolling with pressure and I load the pressure in my joints and align properly. By doing this I am finding an efficient pathway of force that is supported skeletally and by the ground. Some people call this a smooth ground path.

But this is basic VT training, yes? It is used to improve the punch in WSL VT. It may be used to bounce people, unbalance people in other wing chun, I don't know, and I will not comment on what I believe to be the relative efficacy of these different approaches.

What I don't see is what is new or different about it, or what requires books, very long and confusing video explanations, and so on? Surely everyone's wing chun has this training? I wouldn't call it internal, special or anything unusual. It is just VT?

 

[guy b.]

Why do people guess all the time?

I suppose people "guess" because on the one hand you wish to bring it to the people, make it understandable, show it to be simple; but on the other you and/or Hendrick will always dismiss any understanding that anyone else brings as completly trivial. On this thread for example.

That's ok, but then when asked for clear explanation it isn't available.

It appears that you wish it to be deep, esoteric and profound, but also highly practical and realistic. Palpable in real combat but also very hard to see or define. Accessable to anyone, but also a closely guarded secret that only the few understand. These desires seem a bit contradictory, and I think suggest that it is more about marketing than anything else.

It goes round and round like this, with you appearing to get progressively more angry (while still pumping out the videos) and Hendrick getting progresively more difficult to understand (while apparently trying his best to make it understandable).

Again it is up to you to show otherwise, if you wish to do so. I would say that if you wish it to be secret then don't talk about it. If you wish to make it public then talk straight. If you wish to sell it then maybe continue as you are, but be careful of the image you project.

 

[Tez3]

??? My guys have had over 200 fights and I teach professional fighters and my skill holds up very well under pressure. What more do you need?

I don't know Alan but know of several of his fighters and I especially know Pete Irving who runs one of Alan's fight teams and credits Alan as a mentor. Pete first fought on the very first show we did in 2003, as well as the first Pride & Glory show we in again in 2003, he's fought on our shows twice since against good opponents in 2005 and 2006, He's since become an extremely knowledgeable and serious instructor so if he says Alan is good at what he does I'm positive he is.