For the street, better to learn non sport take down defense or grappling?

[skribs]

Now afte you obtain a dominant position after stopping a take down, and you want to consciously decided to do serious damage to your opponent, that's a different story.

But understand what I'm saying, dirty fighting isn't a bad thing. However I'm saying they are best used in combination with (before and after) someone tries to take you down. In a fashion where you can make a conscious decision to do the damage.

In one post you say it must be only after you secure a dominant position. Ignoring the idea that it can be used to help get you into a dominant position. Or it can be used to disrupt an assailant enough that you don't need a dominant position, because you are able to run away and escape the dangerous situation.

Then you say it can be before or after someone tries to take you down. So...do you not use techniques while someone is trying to take you down? I've caught and been caught in guillotines while going for a take down in BJJ. If I followed your rules, I could only sprawl, and go for the guillotine if my opponent doesn't have hold of my legs. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

Why is there a window where you can't "make a conscious decision to do the damage"? Do attackers get a "time out" between when they start the take-down and finish it where you shouldn't hurt them?

I don't think that it's the self-defense guys who consider this a magic technique. I think it's the MMA guys. Your description of it doesn't follow the rules you set forth for other techniques. You think you would be better at it without training than someone who does. You think it can only be used if you're in specific positions, instead of used dynamically like other techniques.

Self-defense guys will usually agree that you need to practice a technique to make it work. They have different ideas than you do about what kind of practice will make it work. But I get the sense that you think people in these types of arts just sit around chanting "Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes. Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes."

You have 2 arms and your opponent also have 2 arms. When you use your hand/hands to garb your opponent's ear, or hair, your opponent's free hand can also do someting to you. The question is can your ear or hair grabbing cause more damage than your opponent's attack?

Control the hair, control the head. Control the head, control the body. It's the same idea as a 2-on-1 grip. Yes, you're giving up two of your hands to control one of your opponent's, but you also have a lot of control over that one. If you're positioned and leveraged properly, they shouldn't be able to do too much with the other.

This whole video (heck, the whole channel) is gold, but this is the part I want to reference.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In one post you say it must be only after you secure a dominant position. Ignoring the idea that it can be used to help get you into a dominant position. Or it can be used to disrupt an assailant enough that you don't need a dominant position, because you are able to run away and escape the dangerous situation.

Then you say it can be before or after someone tries to take you down. So...do you not use techniques while someone is trying to take you down? I've caught and been caught in guillotines while going for a take down in BJJ. If I followed your rules, I could only sprawl, and go for the guillotine if my opponent doesn't have hold of my legs. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

There are few (if any) things that are "must" or "always" or "never". The idea is flexibility and adaptability. Simple.

 

[GojuTommy]

Well, we don’t believe in magic. We train, with the weapon, whether blunt or blade, in mind. We assume that a weapon will be used, even if not immediately showing. What would you teach your daughter as her first line of defense against an assailant that out weighs her by 50lbs? Go immediately into guard and work your way up?
There are a lot of “what if” questions. What if you are crab legging and your assailant slices your

i agree that knowing how to jab well, also increase you ability to finger jab and the best way take someone to ground is with 3 years of judo training. Great that your daughter trains so diligently, but If by chance she didn’t have that inclination and came to you wanting to know in a few nasty moves on how to effectively fend off an attacker, what would you show her? Go to guard and work you way up? Yes, i quite realize the optimal pathway is formal training.

I would teach my hypothetical daughter proven takedown defenses.

There’s very little evidence that any non-sport legal techniques will make any real difference in a fight particularly if there’s a 50+ lb difference between her and her assailant.
For eye gouges to be effective you need to already have a dominant position, same for fish hooks, etc.

None of the techniques you listed as takedown defenses would actually stop a person from taking you down.

 

[GojuTommy]

Yes, because throwing a finger punch is the only way to jam your fingers in someone's eyes. This is the problem when you do only sport. You can only think of techniques as analogs to sport techniques. You cannot think outside the box to how those techniques could be used.

This is a perfect example. You don't need the same level of force or speed to damage someone's eyes as you do to knock them out with a punch. Situations where you are relatively safe from punches, such as the clinch (where there isn't enough space to generate the power), you're still in danger of your eyes getting hit.

I've never had eye gouges as a part of my curriculum. But I have taken accidental hits to the eye in both BJJ and HKD, and even those accidental bumps made it difficult to see (and therefor to fight).

But thank you for piling on the arrogance I pointed out in the first thread (that you're better at techniques you don't train because your art is just better), but also pointing out that you don't really understand how these banned techniques work.

"Banned techniques don't work" is probably one of the dumbest pieces of the MMA echo chamber I've ever heard. There's a reason they're banned, and it's not because they don't work. It's acknowledging that they work too well.

Lol, that’s a lot of really stupid assumptions.
The only way to make an eye gouge effective is to have a dominant position while grappling.

I came up in a ‘self defense’ school. I then pressure tested ****. I then allowed my students to try to escape me with out any restrictions and me not wearing any extra protective gear.
If you’re already losing the fight there’s no magical technique that’s not allowed in sport that’s going to reliably turn the tide for you. Either you can fight or you can’t it’s that simple.

1. Plenty of room to generate power for punches in the clinch.
2. If I can’t get an angle for a good punch I can get an angle for a knee or an elbow.
3. All of the techniques listed in #1&2 have proven track records for how effective they are.

These banned techniques are not the magical fight Enders you people keep trying to say they are end of story.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

None of the techniques you listed as takedown defenses would actually stop a person from taking you down.

Footwork can play an important part of the anti-takedown. If you can move back faster that your opponent's forward shooting, you can lead your opponent into the emptiness (kiss the ground).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Footwork should be the number 1 anti-takedown skill.

 

[GojuTommy]

Footwork can play an important part of the anti-takedown. If you can move back faster that your opponent's forward shooting, you can lead your opponent into the emptiness (kiss the ground).

Cool no one said otherwise? OP said non-sport take down defenses.
Footwork is a sporting take down defense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Cool no one said otherwise? OP said non-sport take down defenses.
Footwork is a sporting take down defense.

I'm confused. Why footwork is sporting take down defense? Your opponent moves in, you move back. What does that have to do with sport?

 

[GojuTommy]

I'm confused. Why footwork is sporting take down defense? Your opponent moves in, you move back. What does that have to do with sport?

You’re joking right? You don’t understand the difference between footwork and techniques banned from sport?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You’re joking right? You don’t understand the difference between footwork and techniques banned from sport?

I didn't realize that your definition of "NON sport takedown defense" is "techniques banned from sport".

In the following clip, how can a referee be able to tell whether he lost his balance, or he did this on purpose?

Is this banned from sport? Does anybody know?

 

[GojuTommy]

I didn't realize that your definition of "NON sport takedown defense" is "techniques banned from sport".

In the following clip, how can a referee be able to tell whether he lost his balance, or he did this on purpose?

Is this banned from sport? Does anybody know?

I have no clue what you’re talking about but I really have no interest engaging with a troll

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. Basically that. Also if you do want to be prison rules Pete. You will be more successful at all your deadly eyegouge or whatever if you can win the position.

In one post you say it must be only after you secure a dominant position. Ignoring the idea that it can be used to help get you into a dominant position. Or it can be used to disrupt an assailant enough that you don't need a dominant position, because you are able to run away and escape the dangerous situation.

Then you say it can be before or after someone tries to take you down. So...do you not use techniques while someone is trying to take you down? I've caught and been caught in guillotines while going for a take down in BJJ. If I followed your rules, I could only sprawl, and go for the guillotine if my opponent doesn't have hold of my legs. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

Why is there a window where you can't "make a conscious decision to do the damage"? Do attackers get a "time out" between when they start the take-down and finish it where you shouldn't hurt them?

I don't think that it's the self-defense guys who consider this a magic technique. I think it's the MMA guys. Your description of it doesn't follow the rules you set forth for other techniques. You think you would be better at it without training than someone who does. You think it can only be used if you're in specific positions, instead of used dynamically like other techniques.

Self-defense guys will usually agree that you need to practice a technique to make it work. They have different ideas than you do about what kind of practice will make it work. But I get the sense that you think people in these types of arts just sit around chanting "Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes. Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes."


Control the hair, control the head. Control the head, control the body. It's the same idea as a 2-on-1 grip. Yes, you're giving up two of your hands to control one of your opponent's, but you also have a lot of control over that one. If you're positioned and leveraged properly, they shouldn't be able to do too much with the other.

This whole video (heck, the whole channel) is gold, but this is the part I want to reference.

The main issue is quite often people who resort to street don't understand the position well enough to make a good judgement.

And the reason they don't understand the position is because they don't do sport.

For your next private. Bring two sets of goggles and see if you or your instructor can get better eyegouges while rolling.

 

[Jared Traveler]

In one post you say it must be only after you secure a dominant position. Ignoring the idea that it can be used to help get you into a dominant position. Or it can be used to disrupt an assailant enough that you don't need a dominant position, because you are able to run away and escape the dangerous situation.

Then you say it can be before or after someone tries to take you down. So...do you not use techniques while someone is trying to take you down? I've caught and been caught in guillotines while going for a take down in BJJ. If I followed your rules, I could only sprawl, and go for the guillotine if my opponent doesn't have hold of my legs. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

Why is there a window where you can't "make a conscious decision to do the damage"? Do attackers get a "time out" between when they start the take-down and finish it where you shouldn't hurt them?

I don't think that it's the self-defense guys who consider this a magic technique. I think it's the MMA guys. Your description of it doesn't follow the rules you set forth for other techniques. You think you would be better at it without training than someone who does. You think it can only be used if you're in specific positions, instead of used dynamically like other techniques.

Self-defense guys will usually agree that you need to practice a technique to make it work. They have different ideas than you do about what kind of practice will make it work. But I get the sense that you think people in these types of arts just sit around chanting "Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes. Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes."


Control the hair, control the head. Control the head, control the body. It's the same idea as a 2-on-1 grip. Yes, you're giving up two of your hands to control one of your opponent's, but you also have a lot of control over that one. If you're positioned and leveraged properly, they shouldn't be able to do too much with the other.

This whole video (heck, the whole channel) is gold, but this is the part I want to reference.

Hun? What? I'm simply explaining that "dirty fighting techniques" can be effective if used at the proper time, in the proper way. That generally is in a time of your choosing. Takedown defense time chooses you. That instant can come at any time, at any moment, usually when they feel they have a position of dominance, an angle, a clear path, or the element of surprise. That's a great time to deal with the immediate threat, retain your ambulatory position so you can continue to make decisions like, "should I dig his eyeball out." It's not about giving him a time out, it's recognizing that you aren't allowed one.

 

[GojuTommy]

Hun? What? I'm simply explaining that "dirty fighting techniques" can be effective if used at the proper time, in the proper way. That generally is in a time of your choosing. Takedown defense time chooses you. That instant can come at any time, at any moment, usually when they feel they have a position of dominance, an angle, a clear path, or the element of surprise. That's a great time to deal with the immediate threat, retain your ambulatory position so you can continue to make decisions like, "should I dig his eyeball out." It's not about giving him a time out, it's recognizing that you aren't allowed one.

The problem with so many people who believe that banned techniques are the end all be all of fighting is that the overwhelming majority of them only ever have experience with compliant, training, using drills that have very narrow parameters(which is ironic since sport typically has broader parameters than these drills.) so a lot of their perception of how to use techniques is essentially based on people letting them use their techniques, and not actually trying to do anything of their own.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I didn't realize that your definition of "NON sport takedown defense" is "techniques banned from sport".

In the following clip, how can a referee be able to tell whether he lost his balance, or he did this on purpose?

Is this banned from sport? Does anybody know?

It is banned. Pick up and slam gets you a DQ. Seems to work ok on a mat. Bet it works on concrete too.

 

[GojuTommy]

It is banned. Pick up and slam gets you a DQ. Seems to work ok on a mat. Bet it works on concrete too.

Ok?
What’s with you people?

1. It’s banned in 1 sport. Other sports allow it.
2 the OP gave a list of banned techniques.
3. That wasn’t a takedown defense

Holy **** this site is full of people who live to strawman. Why is it so hard to stay on topic?

 

[GojuTommy]

In one post you say it must be only after you secure a dominant position. Ignoring the idea that it can be used to help get you into a dominant position. Or it can be used to disrupt an assailant enough that you don't need a dominant position, because you are able to run away and escape the dangerous situation.

Then you say it can be before or after someone tries to take you down. So...do you not use techniques while someone is trying to take you down? I've caught and been caught in guillotines while going for a take down in BJJ. If I followed your rules, I could only sprawl, and go for the guillotine if my opponent doesn't have hold of my legs. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

Why is there a window where you can't "make a conscious decision to do the damage"? Do attackers get a "time out" between when they start the take-down and finish it where you shouldn't hurt them?

I don't think that it's the self-defense guys who consider this a magic technique. I think it's the MMA guys. Your description of it doesn't follow the rules you set forth for other techniques. You think you would be better at it without training than someone who does. You think it can only be used if you're in specific positions, instead of used dynamically like other techniques.

Self-defense guys will usually agree that you need to practice a technique to make it work. They have different ideas than you do about what kind of practice will make it work. But I get the sense that you think people in these types of arts just sit around chanting "Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes. Kick the groin, punch the throat, poke the eyes."


Control the hair, control the head. Control the head, control the body. It's the same idea as a 2-on-1 grip. Yes, you're giving up two of your hands to control one of your opponent's, but you also have a lot of control over that one. If you're positioned and leveraged properly, they shouldn't be able to do too much with the other.

This whole video (heck, the whole channel) is gold, but this is the part I want to reference.

Wait are you citing a video of a girl with 100+ lbs on her opponent using hair pulling?
**** thicki minaj could have grabbed their shirts and flung them around with that weight difference.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Ok?
What’s with you people?

1. It’s banned in 1 sport. Other sports allow it.
2 the OP gave a list of banned techniques.
3. That wasn’t a takedown defense

Holy **** this site is full of people who live to strawman. Why is it so hard to stay on topic?

Not ok. Reflecting on your own inability to converse as an adult might assist you in seeing something positive come from your interactions with others. Your posts reveal you as a dim, mannerless sort, so allow me to help you through yet another difficult time relating to the world around you. I would caution against your use of certain verbiage, as I once saw someone get their teeth bashed out with a wrench for carelessly referring to others as “you people”. I have doubts about your supposed experience and said prowess that you tout over your supposed students. I don’t want to overwhelm you with facts, but here are three you really need to absorb.
1. I was neither addressing you, nor was I arguing for, or against your point.
2. I rarely find your posts interesting beyond the slightly entertaining way that you flail about in conversations.(it’s kind of cute but this isn’t one of those times).
3. I find it ironic that you should speak of a strawman. Are you traveling to see the wizard per chance? There are limits, even to his power.

 

[Hanzou]

If you really had to choose just one? My preference would be to concentrate on NON sport takedown defense. Ear grabbing, eye gouging, elbows to base of neck type stuff. All with good footwork and posturing of course.

Many years ago, I was at a semi local hamburger joint. Right outside my window, a fight broke out. One of the guys bumm rushed the other. The other guy did a perfect hockey pull the shirt over the rushers head maneuver and simply dragged him to the ground. Folks witnessing did a soprano’s type “0hhhhh” in unison. So funny!

The simple reality is that it’s incredibly hard to eye gouge or rip someone’s ear off when they’re shooting for a DLT, gripping you up for a body slam, or generally manhandling you. A double leg takedown is easy, disabling someone with an elbow to the back of the neck who is doing the DLT on you is not.

 

[Holmejr]

The simple reality is that it’s incredibly hard to eye gouge or rip someone’s ear off when they’re shooting for a DLT, gripping you up for a body slam, or generally manhandling you. A double leg takedown is easy, disabling someone with an elbow to the back of the neck who is doing the DLT on you is not.

Granted, but it’s not limited to that, but also includes those tactics. The point was really to think more maliciously when it comes to combat situations, ie. blanded/blunt weapon, real ill intent. I prob didn’t coney my thoughts well enough.