For the street, better to learn non sport take down defense or grappling?

[Holmejr]

If you really had to choose just one? My preference would be to concentrate on NON sport takedown defense. Ear grabbing, eye gouging, elbows to base of neck type stuff. All with good footwork and posturing of course.

Many years ago, I was at a semi local hamburger joint. Right outside my window, a fight broke out. One of the guys bumm rushed the other. The other guy did a perfect hockey pull the shirt over the rushers head maneuver and simply dragged him to the ground. Folks witnessing did a soprano’s type “0hhhhh” in unison. So funny!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The other guy did a perfect hockey pull the shirt over the rushers head maneuver and simply dragged him to the ground.

The downward pulling is a throwing technique.

 

[Holmejr]

The downward pulling is a throwing technique.

View attachment 29378

That’s super, but if given only one choice what would it be. I practice FMA, so I believe non sport takedown defense would be more practical than adding the study of a formal grappling art and all its intricacies.

 

[Holmejr]

Just to clarify, I meant this as a supplement study. If you are doing BJJ or another grappling art you might already be well versed in NON sport takedown defense for combat street application.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just to clarify, I meant this as a supplement study. If you are doing BJJ or another grappling art you might already be well versed in NON sport takedown defense for combat street application.

So supplemental, or only one style. If only one style, I'd choose wrestling or judo. If I'm skilled in one of those and am adding a supplemental, then I'd go for a non-sport option. But first would be having skill in a sport style, as those have been more thoroughly pressure tested.

 

[GojuTommy]

If you really had to choose just one? My preference would be to concentrate on NON sport takedown defense. Ear grabbing, eye gouging, elbows to base of neck type stuff. All with good footwork and posturing of course.

Many years ago, I was at a semi local hamburger joint. Right outside my window, a fight broke out. One of the guys bumm rushed the other. The other guy did a perfect hockey pull the shirt over the rushers head maneuver and simply dragged him to the ground. Folks witnessing did a soprano’s type “0hhhhh” in unison. So funny!

this argument again…
1. How do you plan to train these non-sport defenses in a manner that’s actually useful?

2. Get good at ‘sport’ takedown defenses, and all those non-sport things are low skill things to do, so it will be even easier to do them.

 

[skribs]

I practice FMA, so I believe non sport takedown defense would be more practical than adding the study of a formal grappling art and all its intricacies.

Because of this, I think you (specifically @Holmejr ) might actually benefit more from doing the sport version. It will give you a different perspective than just adding in take-down defense to what you already know.

I think "sport vs self-defense" is a similar discussion to "striking vs grappling" or "MMA vs dedicated art." Doing only one will generally get you decent self-defense. Doing both will round out your skillset.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just to clarify, I meant this as a supplement study. If you are doing BJJ or another grappling art you might already be well versed in NON sport takedown defense for combat street application.

If "NON sport takedown" is effective, it should have been used in sport.

What other kind of NON sport takedown are you talking about besides "downward pulling"?

 

[skribs]

1. How do you plan to train these non-sport defenses in a manner that’s actually useful?

2. Get good at ‘sport’ takedown defenses, and all those non-sport things are low skill things to do, so it will be even easier to do them.

If #1 is true, then how do you expect to get good at #2 without training them?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That’s super, but if given only one choice what would it be. I practice FMA, so I believe non sport takedown defense would be more practical than adding the study of a formal grappling art and all its intricacies.

I missed this until skribs quoted it. FMA does in fact have sport options for it, which includes takedown defense (if one's losing in a weapon fight a takedown is normally the best option).

 

[drop bear]

Overhook, crossface, sprawl.

 

[GojuTommy]

If #1 is true, then how do you expect to get good at #2 without training them?

Because if you have actual take down defenses it doesn’t matter if you manage to gouge the eyes or not. If you fail the eye gouge you still stopped the take down. What happens if you miss the elbow to the base of the skull? You get taken down, now does your FMA have any ground fighting in its curriculum?

If you don’t train real takedown defenses then you have nothing to rely on when your magical ‘self defense’ take down techniques don’t work because you never actually did them to anyone in resistance training.

Bottom line, if you want to get good at self defense, get good at full contact sport. If you can kick a trained fighter in the stomach, you can kick a random untrained aggressor on the balls. If you punch a trained fighter in the face, you can jam your fingers in the eye(s) of a random aggressor. Name a ‘dirty’ or ‘dangerous’ self defense technique that’s banned in sport, and I’ll probably be able to tell you how there’s a close alternative that’s sport legal and more difficult to do.

 

[skribs]

If you punch a trained fighter in the face, you can jam your fingers in the eye(s) of a random aggressor. Name a ‘dirty’ or ‘dangerous’ self defense technique that’s banned in sport, and I’ll probably be able to tell you how there’s a close alternative that’s sport legal and more difficult to do.

Yes, because throwing a finger punch is the only way to jam your fingers in someone's eyes. This is the problem when you do only sport. You can only think of techniques as analogs to sport techniques. You cannot think outside the box to how those techniques could be used.

This is a perfect example. You don't need the same level of force or speed to damage someone's eyes as you do to knock them out with a punch. Situations where you are relatively safe from punches, such as the clinch (where there isn't enough space to generate the power), you're still in danger of your eyes getting hit.

I've never had eye gouges as a part of my curriculum. But I have taken accidental hits to the eye in both BJJ and HKD, and even those accidental bumps made it difficult to see (and therefor to fight).

But thank you for piling on the arrogance I pointed out in the first thread (that you're better at techniques you don't train because your art is just better), but also pointing out that you don't really understand how these banned techniques work.

"Banned techniques don't work" is probably one of the dumbest pieces of the MMA echo chamber I've ever heard. There's a reason they're banned, and it's not because they don't work. It's acknowledging that they work too well.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Reference my thread on "The secret technique...." Dirty fighting can be effective, so can begging for your life, they can also get you killed or injured if you overestimate their effectiveness.

There are other issues, one being that sprawling, hip cuts, posting, maintain good posture, cross facing, and or dominating the position is a no brainer once you have the skill. Pretty much it can become instinctive. Counter takedown skills have to be quick and almost feel and automatic.

However what you never want to be automatic, and instinctive is seriously damaging another human being. You don't want to pop someone's eye out anymore than you want to shoot someone without a concision decision. Almost exclusively stick to sports based techniques and skill, then use dirty fighting ti finish the fight if it's appropriate.

That mammoth decision takes context, and many can do it in theory, but not the moment of truth in application. Relying on dirty fighting for something as dynamic as counter takedown in my opinion is a recipe for problems.

Now afte you obtain a dominant position after stopping a take down, and you want to consciously decided to do serious damage to your opponent, that's a different story.

 

[Holmejr]

If "NON sport takedown" is effective, it should have been used in sport.

What other kind of NON sport takedown are you talking about besides "downward pulling"?

Should grabbing ears or hair be allowed in sport? If I tear you ear should I get extra points

If "NON sport takedown" is effective, it should have been used in sport.

What other kind of NON sport takedown are you talking about besides "downward

So what are some takedown techniques that are deemed illegal in competition? In mma when someone gets eye gouged, they stop the fight, a doctor comes out. I’ve never seen anyone grab the ears of an opponent in college wrestling to assist in pinning. Why?

 

[Holmejr]

Reference my thread on "The secret technique...." Dirty fighting can be effective, so can begging for your life, they can also get you killed or injured if you overestimate their effectiveness.

There are other issues, one being that sprawling, hip cuts, posting, maintain good posture, cross facing, and or dominating the position is a no brainer once you have the skill. Pretty much it can become instinctive. Counter takedown skills have to be quick and almost feel and automatic.

However what you never want to be automatic, and instinctive is seriously damaging another human being. You don't want to pop someone's eye out anymore than you want to shoot someone without a concision decision. Almost exclusively stick to sports based techniques and skill, then use dirty fighting ti finish the fight if it's appropriate.

That mammoth decision takes context, and many can do it in theory, but not the moment of truth in application. Relying on dirty fighting for something as dynamic as counter takedown in my opinion is a recipe for problems.

Now afte you obtain a dominant position after stopping a take down, and you want to consciously decided to do serious damage to your opponent, that's a different story.

That’s what you would teach you daughter getting raped or abducted?

Even when I was in hapkido, we trained the straight finger jab to the eyes or throat and the grab face and thumb the eye. If by chance, a knife wielding nutcase decides concentrate their attention my way. Your recommendation would be to not bring serious injury to the poor fella, because it’s a recipe for problems. I kind think the perp making the commitment to use that knife IS the problem. I get the running away if possible and the verbal/physical de-escalation as the humane and even charitable thing to do. I also get that tearing somebody’s ear or putting my thumb in an eye socket inflicts enough non deadly pain to nullify an attack and allow for a quick stop of the action, allowing for maybe more conventional techniques to succeed. Again, what would you teach your daughter to do? Grapple?
In our FMA class we train to, if by chance we can disarm a knife, hold it against the assailants throat and command them to cease. If they move they effectively cut themselves. We also train under certain circumstances to pull the knife away, throw it and run away. We hope with as intense as we train, we keep the ball in our court and stay centered enough to make wise decisions in a blink of an eye (pun intended).

 

[Jared Traveler]

That’s what you would teach you daughter getting raped or abducted?

Even when I was in hapkido, we trained the straight finger jab to the eyes or throat and the grab face and thumb the eye. If by chance, a knife wielding nutcase decides concentrate their attention my way. Your recommendation would be to not bring serious injury to the poor fella, because it’s a recipe for problems. I kind think the perp making the commitment to use that knife IS the problem. I get the running away if possible and the verbal/physical de-escalation as the humane and even charitable thing to do. I also get that tearing somebody’s ear or putting my thumb in an eye socket inflicts enough non deadly pain to nullify an attack and allow for a quick stop of the action, allowing for maybe more conventional techniques to succeed. Again, what would you teach your daughter to do? Grapple?
In our FMA class we train to, if by chance we can disarm a knife, hold it against the assailants throat and command them to cease. If they move they effectively cut themselves. We also train under certain circumstances to pull the knife away, throw it and run away. We hope with as intense as we train, we keep the ball in our court and stay centered enough to make wise decisions in a blink of an eye (pun intended).

My daughter takes Sambo/Judo from me, and she studies Muay Thai in Thailand. With that said, poking her in the eye isn't an easy thing for anyone to do. Muay Thai teaches amazing distance management of your opponents limbs at close range in the clinch.

But understand what I'm saying, dirty fighting isn't a bad thing. However I'm saying they are best used in combination with (before and after) someone tries to take you down. In a fashion where you can make a conscious decision to do the damage.

 

[Holmejr]

Because if you have actual take down defenses it doesn’t matter if you manage to gouge the eyes or not. If you fail the eye gouge you still stopped the take down. What happens if you miss the elbow to the base of the skull? You get taken down, now does your FMA have any ground fighting in its curriculum?

If you don’t train real takedown defenses then you have nothing to rely on when your magical ‘self defense’ take down techniques don’t work because you never actually did them to anyone in resistance training.

Bottom line, if you want to get good at self defense, get good at full contact sport. If you can kick a trained fighter in the stomach, you can kick a random untrained aggressor on the balls. If you punch a trained fighter in the face, you can jam your fingers in the eye(s) of a random aggressor. Name a ‘dirty’ or ‘dangerous’ self defense technique that’s banned in sport, and I’ll probably be able to tell you how there’s a close alternative that’s sport legal and more difficult to do.

Well, we don’t believe in magic. We train, with the weapon, whether blunt or blade, in mind. We assume that a weapon will be used, even if not immediately showing. What would you teach your daughter as her first line of defense against an assailant that out weighs her by 50lbs? Go immediately into guard and work your way up?
There are a lot of “what if” questions. What if you are crab legging and your assailant slices your

My daughter takes Sambo/Judo from me, and she studies Muay Thai in Thailand. With that said, poking her in the eye isn't an easy thing for anyone to do. Muay Thai teaches amazing distance management of your opponents limbs at close range in the clinch.

But understand what I'm saying, dirty fighting isn't a bad thing. However I'm saying they are best used in combination with (before and after) someone tries to take you down. In a fashion where you can make a conscious decision to do the damage.

i agree that knowing how to jab well, also increase you ability to finger jab and the best way take someone to ground is with 3 years of judo training. Great that your daughter trains so diligently, but If by chance she didn’t have that inclination and came to you wanting to know in a few nasty moves on how to effectively fend off an attacker, what would you show her? Go to guard and work you way up? Yes, i quite realize the optimal pathway is formal training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Should grabbing ears or hair be allowed in sport? If I tear you ear should I get extra points

You have 2 arms and your opponent also have 2 arms. When you use your hand/hands to garb your opponent's ear, or hair, your opponent's free hand can also do someting to you. The question is can your ear or hair grabbing cause more damage than your opponent's attack?

When you use your hands to attack your opponent (such as to grab your opponent's ear), at the same time you don't want your opponent's hand to attack you (such as he grabs your balls). This is why we all need MA training.

 

[Holmejr]

You have 2 arms and your opponent also have 2 arms. When you use your hand/hands to garb your opponent's ear, or hair, your opponent's free hand can also do someting to you. The question is can your ear or hair grabbing cause more damage than your opponent's attack?

When you use your hands to attack your opponent (such as to grab your opponent's ear), at the same time you don't want your opponent's hand to attack you (such as he grabs your balls). This is why we all need MA training.

Yes, I’m a big proponent of MA training.