Food for thought on the "Bai Jong" or "ready position"
- Thread starter KPM
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If engaged with the opponent there may very well be times when you pivot to neutral...YGKYM...rather than pivoting completely to the other side....a "half pivot." We spend all this time training Chi Sau exchanges in YGKYM, so why in the world would anyone expect that the position wouldn't show up when engaging an actual opponent in Chi Sau range?
If a side stance commits you to one side, you may be using it at the wrong time/ without strategy.
It's still neutral to me. Committed would be when taking a lead leg.
Because chi-sau training drills in VT only relate to fighting in an abstract way.
One must learn how drilling connects to free fighting, so as not to try and apply it as is.
We don't extend both arms equally as in chi-sau when fighting either. Do you see that as a problem too?
If not, why should upper body differ between drilling and fighting, and lower body not?
We don't extend both arms equally as in chi-sau when fighting either. Do you see that as a problem too?
---No. Because if I am close enough to the opponent, why wouldn't I extend both arms equally? Maybe you don't get as close? Many people do Wing Chun at "arm's reach" so to speak. In Pin Sun and other mainland styles, you tend to get in a bit closer than that.
---No. Because if I am close enough to the opponent, why wouldn't I extend both arms equally? Maybe you don't get as close? Many people do Wing Chun at "arm's reach" so to speak. In Pin Sun and other mainland styles, you tend to get in a bit closer than that.
I assume "takedown" refers to a lower attack (I use it as a universal term but I think you use it differently). If that's the case, a definite yes to this. Having arms extended away (as during a strike) takes them out of the zone where they'd be best able to counter a low entry like a shoot. The point of most vulnerability (as is often the case) is right before the attack matures.
I think the problem here is that sometimes both arms are extended, sometimes they are not.
If someone attempts to grab you equally on both sides of your centerline it may be advisable to have two arms extended. Depending on the situation of course. While in conflict trading punches or attempts to break your leg structure perhaps it is not.
I am terrible once again at explaining situations but given the discussion I would say bull to anyone saying "we never" or "we always" in regards to extending arms. This has to be same for all you as well as it is for me.
In VT both hands are not extended at the same time.
Some people might point to Po Pai usage, but I would say Po Pai is both a luxury and a risk. It is a thing you might do if opportunity presents, not something to chase after.
If we are starting from someone already having grabbed with both hands then our VT has already failed to a large extent and we are in BJ territory. Of course we might just punch them if they have hands on and no balance attack going on..unrealistic starting conditions might give rise to all sorts of funny conclusions.
It is important to know how to approach the fight, normal strategy, normal way to finish it. If we always focus on extraordinary conditions then it is easy to get confused. In VT we have a forward hand and we have a back hand for a reason, and that is what we train 99% of the time.
Maybe I missed it, but this thread is really only about stances (ignoring the normal on-going personal quibbles that keep popping up on all of the threads lately). Having read Bai Jong in the title, I had hoped there would be more meat to the discussion seeing how 'Bai Jong' has a lot more detail/layers to it than just a single stance (set up, alignment, facing, matching, engagement, etc).
There is no such thing as just a stance, it is all about aligning body all the way to tip of fingers. In order to discuss one we have to understand all.
God, WC is such a mess to discuss.
Actually I am slightly bit bored as well waiting for my training session to start for today. Got to work a bit more before it does, to make a living. My wife would not support me if I told her I would go on instructor/teacher salary.
In VT both hands are not extended at the same time.
---Again...in YOUR Wing Chun, maybe. The first version of Wing Chun I learned has a double punch in the SLT form. Both arms are certainly extended at the same time. If I am stepping through and closing with a Pak Da that traps the arm and strikes at the same time, then both arms are extended at the same time and my shoulders are square.
Some people might point to Po Pai usage, but I would say Po Pai is both a luxury and a risk. It is a thing you might do if opportunity presents, not something to chase after.
---Same is true of a lot of techniques. There is a time and place for everything. Anything can be risky if done at the wrong time. But Po Pai is definitely part of Wing Chun and definitely has both arms extended. So you've proven your own statement wrong.
If we are starting from someone already having grabbed with both hands then our VT has already failed to a large extent
---So you are saying you never train for a surprise "self-defense" type situation? Because someone can certainly walk up and grab you unexpectedly with both hands if you aren't looking or expecting it.
It is important to know how to approach the fight, normal strategy, normal way to finish it. If we always focus on extraordinary conditions then it is easy to get confused.
---No one has mentioned anything "extraordinary." If you think what I have said is "extraordinary", then I have to wonder about your experience.
In VT we have a forward hand and we have a back hand for a reason, and that is what we train 99% of the time.
---Then I would say you must be staying at "arm's length" 99% of the time. Maybe that's your Wing Chun. But it isn't mine.
---Again...in YOUR Wing Chun, maybe. The first version of Wing Chun I learned has a double punch in the SLT form. Both arms are certainly extended at the same time. If I am stepping through and closing with a Pak Da that traps the arm and strikes at the same time, then both arms are extended at the same time and my shoulders are square.
Some people might point to Po Pai usage, but I would say Po Pai is both a luxury and a risk. It is a thing you might do if opportunity presents, not something to chase after.
---Same is true of a lot of techniques. There is a time and place for everything. Anything can be risky if done at the wrong time. But Po Pai is definitely part of Wing Chun and definitely has both arms extended. So you've proven your own statement wrong.
If we are starting from someone already having grabbed with both hands then our VT has already failed to a large extent
---So you are saying you never train for a surprise "self-defense" type situation? Because someone can certainly walk up and grab you unexpectedly with both hands if you aren't looking or expecting it.
It is important to know how to approach the fight, normal strategy, normal way to finish it. If we always focus on extraordinary conditions then it is easy to get confused.
---No one has mentioned anything "extraordinary." If you think what I have said is "extraordinary", then I have to wonder about your experience.
In VT we have a forward hand and we have a back hand for a reason, and that is what we train 99% of the time.
---Then I would say you must be staying at "arm's length" 99% of the time. Maybe that's your Wing Chun. But it isn't mine.
Feel free to add to the thread
Again, please notice that I am only talking about VT.
Do you do a lot of double punches? What does your pak hand do once the pak is done?
I don't think Po Pai as a 2 handed push is something that the conceptual base of the system would advise us to do, as my answer indicated.
No I don't train the surprise self defence situation of being grabbed by a person using both hands to grab me. What do they do next in your scenario training?
VT isn't a grappling system, therefore grappling training tends to be minimal. It is extraordinary in the context of what the system is designed to do. We also don't train empty hands vs knives as I think was mentioned on another thread.
Please don't worry about my experience, I am fine thanks.
Don't you have man/wu hands?
Again, please notice that I am only talking about VT.
---Yes, I realize that from the other thread! But you hadn't made that clear in the past. Got it now.
Do you do a lot of double punches?
---No. That was just part of the first version of Ip Man WCK that I learned. I don't practice that version anymore.
What does your pak hand do once the pak is done?
---Cycle into another punch, transition to another defensive move, continue to press the opponent as I step in further.....it just depends.
I don't think Po Pai as a 2 handed push is something that the conceptual base of the system would advise us to do, as my answer indicated.
---We don't do it as a push. It truly uses the "spit" concept and is somewhere between a shove and strike....as I pointed out in Gary Lam's videos were he sends his opponent sailing into the mattress behind him. How then does WSLVT interpret the Po Pai Palms? It is still in your dummy form, isn't it?
No I don't train the surprise self defence situation of being grabbed by a person using both hands to grab me. What do they do next in your scenario training?
---Anything they want! Its not scripted.
VT isn't a grappling system, therefore grappling training tends to be minimal. It is extraordinary in the context of what the system is designed to do. We also don't train empty hands vs knives as I think was mentioned on another thread.
---Yes, it seems that part has been "refined" out of the system over time.
Don't you have man/wu hands?
---I don't know. That depends on what you mean!
---Yes, I realize that from the other thread! But you hadn't made that clear in the past. Got it now.
Do you do a lot of double punches?
---No. That was just part of the first version of Ip Man WCK that I learned. I don't practice that version anymore.
What does your pak hand do once the pak is done?
---Cycle into another punch, transition to another defensive move, continue to press the opponent as I step in further.....it just depends.
I don't think Po Pai as a 2 handed push is something that the conceptual base of the system would advise us to do, as my answer indicated.
---We don't do it as a push. It truly uses the "spit" concept and is somewhere between a shove and strike....as I pointed out in Gary Lam's videos were he sends his opponent sailing into the mattress behind him. How then does WSLVT interpret the Po Pai Palms? It is still in your dummy form, isn't it?
No I don't train the surprise self defence situation of being grabbed by a person using both hands to grab me. What do they do next in your scenario training?
---Anything they want! Its not scripted.
VT isn't a grappling system, therefore grappling training tends to be minimal. It is extraordinary in the context of what the system is designed to do. We also don't train empty hands vs knives as I think was mentioned on another thread.
---Yes, it seems that part has been "refined" out of the system over time.
Don't you have man/wu hands?
---I don't know. That depends on what you mean!
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