Food for thought on the "Bai Jong" or "ready position"

[KPM]

This forum is slightly crazy in terms of the way nobody is able to admit it when they are wrong

Geez. You guys really are something! This is the "basic question" that Drop Bear asked:


By the way. If that stance is so good to defend takedowns why does wrestling which is all takedowns have a different stance?

This is just a stupid question to begin with. Nobody is being "crazy and not admitting they are wrong." Guy is just being his typical a55hole self.

First. I never said that the YGKYM was "so good to defend takedowns." I said it was less vulnerable to a takedown than having one leg forward....as was explained in the video. Now you may argue that this is not true. But I tend to go with the opinion of the guy with all the grappling credentials and experience. Second, wrestling is indeed "all about takedowns"....so it makes sense that wrestling would also have a stance that is all about defending against a takedown....being specialized in that area. Wing Chun is NOT specialized in that area, so why in the world would anyone expect it to use a wrestling stance? That's just a stupid question right from the beginning, and Guy should recognize that as well.

 

[Phobius]

Still want to figure out how you get mobility out of YGKYM. It is just one of those things that I have hard time even accepting simply because I just can´t get close to that experience when trying myself.

Still eager to know what aspect I am missing and what things I have not tried out. What is the key?

 

[KPM]

The side stance in the video is mobile yes, but it is not the same if you turn both knees, legs and feet inwards.In such a position I find it you have no tension built up to generate a moving force in any direction.

---But position has very little to do with tension. You can generate tension in any position.

You become rooted but unable to move forward without shifting weight, unable to move backward as well as sideways.

---I don't find that true at all. I can stand in my YGKYM and move freely in any direction, as I have already pointed out. Maybe a difference in training?



Could of course be wrong but I have not really found many directions to move into quickly from YGKYM without going into another stance first before moving feet.

---I assure you, I do not pivot into a side stance before stepping out from YGKYM. Like I said, if you know how to use this position, it is pure potential. It is considered a "neutral" stance for a reason. You don't have to shift through "reverse" before putting your car in "drive" from "neutral." But again, I will say that for someone that is holding a lot of tension and maybe keeping their weight back near their heels this may not be the case. But that is not how I do YGKYM.


Still eager to know what aspect I am missing and what things I have not tried out. What is the key?

---I keep the pelvis or Kwa "unlocked" or "floating" for dynamic balance. I have my weight over the arch of the foot near K1, not near the heels. The knees are bent and springy for that bit of tension needed to "spring into movement", but are not "clamping" and rigid. It really is a lot like a tennis player waiting to return a serve....just upright and not bent forward, and the knees turned a bit inward rather than being straight....but the same kind of feeling of preparedness. This is the same position that Robert Chu uses in his structure tests.

 

[KPM]

Does anyone know if the "upcoming DVD" this excerpt came from was ever released?

I get the impression that the group and the effort feel apart prior to any DVDs being released.

 

[guy b]

I said it was less vulnerable to a takedown than having one leg forward

A wrestling stance has one leg forward

 

[guy b]

I have my weight over the arch of the foot near K1, not near the heels. The knees are bent and springy for that bit of tension needed to "spring into movement", but are not "clamping" and rigid.

Does anyone stand with their weight on the heels and knees locked into position? Can't say I have ever seen it.

 

[KPM]

A wrestling stance has one leg forward

In a very different way, as your picture showed. What's your point?

 

[KPM]

Does anyone stand with their weight on the heels and knees locked into position? Can't say I have ever seen it.

But we've already determined that you don't get out much.

 

[guy b]

But we've already determined that you don't get out much.

Which wing chun have you seen standing in this way?

 

[guy b]

In a very different way, as your picture showed. What's your point?

You are stressing the leg being forward as changing the vulnerability to takedowns. Any grappler knows that you are more stable in terms of forward and backward forces with staggered legs, which is why they stand that way, given that backward and forward forces on the upper body are usually the way that balance is broken before an upper body, hip or leg throw. In terms of traditional freestyle wrestling leg shoot takedowns, standing square leaves you open to a double. Standing staggered you are more vulnerable to a single. I know which I prefer.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Again, I will defer to the opinion and expertise of the guy in the video.

 

[guy b]

Here is another expert for you to defer to:

 

[guy b]

Another thing to consider: why would you be standing still like this when you aren't even within striking range of your opponent? Wouldn't you be moving around, in which case your legs would be staggered?

Are you arguing that in a confrontation you will be waiting in your kung fu stance, until they either shoot for your legs, in which case you anti grapple them, or walk straight up to you, in which case you punch them? Sounds quite unrealistic.

If instead you are planning to use this equal leg stance within striking range, which is what I think you have mentioned before, then for upper body grappling it is also worse than staggered, unless you grab on and put your hips right back, in which case you won't be doing wing chun any more. I know that Alan shows himself absorbing force into his stance and so on, but as far as I have been shown this is a training idea rather than a practical method of dealing with grappling. If you leave your weak leg and hip forward you will be swept, tripped or thrown with it.

 

[KPM]

Here is another expert for you to defer to:

And just what does that have to do with Wing Chun???

I do note that the wrestling stance shown has the guy bending over and squatting down so that his upper body is just as far forward as his lead leg. This negates the problem of having the lead leg forward where a grappler can easily snag it...as shown in the original video. But this is wrestling, not Wing Chun. Wrestling does not have to deal with striking. This is why you seldom see this stance used by wrestlers that have gone over to MMA. It invites a strike to the head.

 

[KPM]

Another thing to consider: why would you be standing still like this when you aren't even within striking range of your opponent? Wouldn't you be moving around, in which case your legs would be staggered?

---Good point. I didn't mean to suggest someone would just stand there in YGKYM and wait for something to happen. I'm just saying it is just as valid of a stance for fighting as the "side stance" that some use.


Are you arguing that in a confrontation you will be waiting in your kung fu stance, until they either shoot for your legs, in which case you anti grapple them, or walk straight up to you, in which case you punch them? Sounds quite unrealistic.

---No, not at all. Absolutely I would be moving around and looking for an opening. But I may pause in YGKYM just as often as I would pause in Pin Sun Ma/Chum Kiu Ma (or whatever you want to call the side stance) or Bik Ma.


If instead you are planning to use this equal leg stance within striking range, which is what I think you have mentioned before, then for upper body grappling it is also worse than staggered,

---I never said I would stubbornly maintain this stance. I pointed out how I can freely step out of this stance in any direction. If a standing grappling situation dictated that a staggered stance was better, then that's what I'd do! I have only said that the YGKYM is as valid a stance to use in fighting as any of the others....not that it takes the place of any of the others.

 

[Phobius]

Just one question, You think it is just as quick moving around from that stance as any other? That is what I mean with mobility, because all stances allow movement but not quick enough to avoid being hit or reacting to incoming force.

 

[drop bear]

And just what does that have to do with Wing Chun???

I do note that the wrestling stance shown has the guy bending over and squatting down so that his upper body is just as far forward as his lead leg. This negates the problem of having the lead leg forward where a grappler can easily snag it...as shown in the original video. But this is wrestling, not Wing Chun. Wrestling does not have to deal with striking. This is why you seldom see this stance used by wrestlers that have gone over to MMA. It invites a strike to the head.

Dont see that stance anywhere but kung fu. (which is fine. I am just arguing this take down idea that so far doesn't really add up)

Does you expert who endorses that stance use that stance?

 

[guy b]

Does you expert who endorses that stance use that stance?

Of course not, he needs to move

 

[KPM]

Just one question, You think it is just as quick moving around from that stance as any other? That is what I mean with mobility, because all stances allow movement but not quick enough to avoid being hit or reacting to incoming force.

Yes, I do. Does a tennis player have any problem moving around from a "squared" ready stance?

 

[guy b]

And just what does that have to do with Wing Chun???

I do note that the wrestling stance shown has the guy bending over and squatting down so that his upper body is just as far forward as his lead leg. This negates the problem of having the lead leg forward where a grappler can easily snag it...as shown in the original video. But this is wrestling, not Wing Chun. Wrestling does not have to deal with striking. This is why you seldom see this stance used by wrestlers that have gone over to MMA. It invites a strike to the head.

It is a different expert for you to defer to about the vulnerability of leg positions to takedowns.

My guess is that the guy in the wing chun video was being paid to say something stupid that he didn't believe, was doing it as a favour to a friend, or something similar. Wrestlers tend to stand like wrestlers, which is a staggered stance, including our wrestling friend in the wing chun video.