I don't think I said anything about any of that.
Its a pretty simple question, seems a bit extreme to bust out the old "Ask your Sifu (if you even have one)!!!"
Food for thought on the "Bai Jong" or "ready position"
- Thread starter KPM
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I don't think I said anything about any of that.
Its a pretty simple question, seems a bit extreme to bust out the old "Ask your Sifu (if you even have one)!!!"
The "push" gives CMA a bad reputation. I have trained Taiji since I was 7 but I'm still allergy to "push". The reason is simple. One should keep his friends close but his enemies closer.
I got into a car accident once and I was involved with a serious argument. The guy tried to get back into his car. I got hold of him and didn't allow him to do so. When the traffic cops came, I was right. That guy had a gun in his glove compartment. A "push" will make you to lose control on your opponent. There is a good reason that BJJ guys don't "push". It's stupid to spend so much effort to get hold on your opponent, you then "push" him away.
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You haven't said yet how WSLVT interprets or uses the Po Pai Palms section from the dummy form.
Read my prior comments. There are certainly situations where you may want to put distance between yourself and the opponent....ballistically! ;-) And it is definitely not a "push"!
The dummy form, like the other forms, is abstract, not about application. Main ideas are force delivery, footwork, synchronicity, two hands together to ensure equal reach with both arms/ facing upon entry.
Certainly, one could apply po-paai by launching someone into a brick wall or down a flight of stairs. You'll be asking for a lengthy prison sentence though when the person dies or suffers severe brain damage from having their head forcefully bounced off a brick wall or when their neck snaps when they land at the bottom of the stairs.
Kind of stupid to ruin your life by listening to a silly instructional tape.
GLWC practitioners say their mattress training is a way to safely deliver punching power into a partner because they're using the same structure as their punching. Sounds more intelligent. You can doubt it if you insist.
We may also use po-paai in training with a partner to check alignment and synchronicity or to test structure. It may be used to maintain ideal striking range while disrupting balance and posture. It can hurt too, but it's important that you're not launching the person away where you can no longer hit them.
Mattress training = safe power release. Not application. Okay?
Training ā Fighting
As you know by now, our DCS isn't about sticking and controlling. It matters more what the elbow is doing. Not so much what shape the hand is in. Why does the other guy punch rather than palm?
The dummy form, like the other forms, is abstract, not about application. Main ideas are force delivery, footwork, synchronicity, two hands together to ensure equal reach with both arms/ facing upon entry.
---But I didn't think you extended both arms at the same time??? That whole section with multiple Po Pai palms is only for training force and footwork? That same footwork is used through-out the form. Seems kind of redundant and a waste of effort when what you are talking about is trained just as well or better by other sections. Seems silly to have that whole elaborate section with Po Pai Palms if you aren't actually going to use Po Pai Palms.
Certainly, one could apply po-paai by launching someone into a brick wall or down a flight of stairs. You'll be asking for a lengthy prison sentence though when the person dies or suffers severe brain damage from having their head forcefully bounced off a brick wall or when their neck snaps when they land at the bottom of the stairs.
---If my life or the life of a loved one is at risk that would be the least of my concerns. Are you routinely getting into "casual fights" where you aren't in fear of death or grave bodily harm?
Kind of stupid to ruin your life by listening to a silly instructional tape.
----I have learned Wu Dip Jeung/Po Pai Palms directly, hands on, in three different lineages of Wing Chun. Each had essentially the same idea about how to use them. I referenced Gary Lam as someone that many people here have seen do this on youtube videos, and when you said he didn't use it this way I pointed out that he does indeed teach to use it this way on his one instructional video. So get off of the middle school taunting posts. You are the one sounding kind of stupid.
GLWC practitioners say their mattress training is a way to safely deliver punching power into a partner because they're using the same structure as their punching. Sounds more intelligent. You can doubt it if you insist.
---Oh, I don't doubt it. I just doubt that this is the ONLY way they see the Po Pai and the mattress training. Because I have friends that are GLWC and they have said so in the past and even shown it in their own videos. You see, I am not going only by watching an instructional tape.
Mattress training = safe power release. Not application. Okay?
---Ok. I'm sure that's probably true in PB-WSLVT, since the only thing you do is punch.
Training ā Fighting
---You haven't heard the old adage?......"You fight the way you train." The more realistic and the more your training matches how you are going to fight the better. Just common sense.
---But I didn't think you extended both arms at the same time??? That whole section with multiple Po Pai palms is only for training force and footwork? That same footwork is used through-out the form. Seems kind of redundant and a waste of effort when what you are talking about is trained just as well or better by other sections. Seems silly to have that whole elaborate section with Po Pai Palms if you aren't actually going to use Po Pai Palms.
Certainly, one could apply po-paai by launching someone into a brick wall or down a flight of stairs. You'll be asking for a lengthy prison sentence though when the person dies or suffers severe brain damage from having their head forcefully bounced off a brick wall or when their neck snaps when they land at the bottom of the stairs.
---If my life or the life of a loved one is at risk that would be the least of my concerns. Are you routinely getting into "casual fights" where you aren't in fear of death or grave bodily harm?
Kind of stupid to ruin your life by listening to a silly instructional tape.
----I have learned Wu Dip Jeung/Po Pai Palms directly, hands on, in three different lineages of Wing Chun. Each had essentially the same idea about how to use them. I referenced Gary Lam as someone that many people here have seen do this on youtube videos, and when you said he didn't use it this way I pointed out that he does indeed teach to use it this way on his one instructional video. So get off of the middle school taunting posts. You are the one sounding kind of stupid.
GLWC practitioners say their mattress training is a way to safely deliver punching power into a partner because they're using the same structure as their punching. Sounds more intelligent. You can doubt it if you insist.
---Oh, I don't doubt it. I just doubt that this is the ONLY way they see the Po Pai and the mattress training. Because I have friends that are GLWC and they have said so in the past and even shown it in their own videos. You see, I am not going only by watching an instructional tape.
Mattress training = safe power release. Not application. Okay?
---Ok. I'm sure that's probably true in PB-WSLVT, since the only thing you do is punch.
Training ā Fighting
---You haven't heard the old adage?......"You fight the way you train." The more realistic and the more your training matches how you are going to fight the better. Just common sense.
I think these two sentences together describe why some only want to train punching and what works in a self defense as well as casual situation. You might end your partners life also if you yourself end up in jail for killing someone when protecting your partner. Not all, especially not a jury, may find it a romantic gesture.
To some learning such options are not of interest which I can respect. Seems their version of WSLVT (it may be the only version, but I can never say without asking so many people I dont even know today) only focus on punching and by doing so they probably due to simply getting more experience in it are better than others of equal training.
Was no real input other than people want to master different things, and it all depends on situations.
Here is Sifu Lam showing how to use the Po Pai:
Here is Sifu Lam showing the use of the "Lung Na".....a double grab....something the resident experts said WSLVT would never do:
Here is Sifu Lam teaching his students. You will see him use the Po Pai several times as well as the Lung Na / Double Lop:
Did Gary Lam not get the "special transmission" from WSL, even though he was a direct HK student for many years????
Here is Sifu Lam showing the use of the "Lung Na".....a double grab....something the resident experts said WSLVT would never do:
Here is Sifu Lam teaching his students. You will see him use the Po Pai several times as well as the Lung Na / Double Lop:
Did Gary Lam not get the "special transmission" from WSL, even though he was a direct HK student for many years????
[I think these two sentences together describe why some only want to train punching and what works in a self defense as well as casual situation. You might end your partners life also if you yourself end up in jail for killing someone when protecting your partner. Not all, especially not a jury, may find it a romantic gesture.
---It doesn't have to be and "either/or" choice. It can be both. And if you are not prepared to use lethal force to defend your life or that of a loved one, then your training is somewhat "one-dimensional." And nowhere did I say that this is the ONLY way to use Po Pai Palms. It is only one way. You might very well use the Po Pai to get someone away from you if you don't know if they are a threat, or if you don't know whether they are armed with a knife, etc. It may be to just create space between you and drunk uncle Ed without harming him at all. And punching someone is no guarantee of NOT using lethal force. That person may very well fall down and strike their head on a curb or on the edge of a table and end up dead.
Was no real input other than people want to master different things, and it all depends on situations.
---True that! Casual gym training? Or a real martial art?
---It doesn't have to be and "either/or" choice. It can be both. And if you are not prepared to use lethal force to defend your life or that of a loved one, then your training is somewhat "one-dimensional." And nowhere did I say that this is the ONLY way to use Po Pai Palms. It is only one way. You might very well use the Po Pai to get someone away from you if you don't know if they are a threat, or if you don't know whether they are armed with a knife, etc. It may be to just create space between you and drunk uncle Ed without harming him at all. And punching someone is no guarantee of NOT using lethal force. That person may very well fall down and strike their head on a curb or on the edge of a table and end up dead.
Was no real input other than people want to master different things, and it all depends on situations.
---True that! Casual gym training? Or a real martial art?
There are other criteria as well, only groundgame. Punching. Throwing. Iron body. Dirty tricks and so on.
I agree and disagree because I am not against anything either of you are saying, just that it is very individual with no right or wrong. You may focus on whatever you want but consider this. While there is no harm in training it all, that means you will have less time to focus on one single thing.
Like focus on Po Pai means less focus on punching perhaps. Just to relate to this topic.
Neither is wrong. I myself have some focus towards groundgame at this point and honestly don't have much thought on po pai. I do like open palm attacks due to palm being more resistant to injuries when your fists are out of the way and as such can punch with a more intentional force.
Does that mean I would ever push someone away from me? Probably not, at least it serves me little interest in terms of training.
PiedmontChun
Purple Belt
The Po Pai is found in the dummy form, but the WT I am learning introduces similar type of "pushes" much earlier on via the chi-sau sections. Controlling the opponent's elbow upward and toward their face while palming to the chest to shock their structure and balance, palming the shoulder in conjunction with a circling step when you have their blindside to uproot them, low palm attacks that "push" forcefully rather than strike, since they make contact well before dissipating their energy.
Being able to "push" in a forceful way like the Po Pai palms has many uses, from "drunken uncle Al" scenarios to multiple attackers, to situations where you need to create space quickly (your opponent's buddy approaching from the side). I think its simplistic to say "If you could Po Pai then you could just punch" as to dismiss the usefulness, but I can respect that there is a spectrum that spans across the various WC lineages in terms of how narrow or wide the focus is. In a fight, the main goal is still to hit and incapacitate the attacker, and I think we can agree that is the main thing.
Being able to "push" in a forceful way like the Po Pai palms has many uses, from "drunken uncle Al" scenarios to multiple attackers, to situations where you need to create space quickly (your opponent's buddy approaching from the side). I think its simplistic to say "If you could Po Pai then you could just punch" as to dismiss the usefulness, but I can respect that there is a spectrum that spans across the various WC lineages in terms of how narrow or wide the focus is. In a fight, the main goal is still to hit and incapacitate the attacker, and I think we can agree that is the main thing.
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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Not intended to be sarcastic
I wouldn't have described it as sarcastic either. Innacurate and evasive might be what I would have said.
What did your friends that trained with Gary Lam say? Why would you feel the need to post a video of Gary Lam when you could have just said so-and-so told you?
Let me know who you were speaking to please? I might ask their opinion on GL and po pai.
As mentioned before, Gary Lam has added quite a lot to his VT. This is no secret. I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve by telling me (or LFJ) what the VT I have experienced is actually like. It seems you are always on some kind of super sleuth mission to discredit people using Gary Lam videos, or pictures of WSL, or PB chi sau clips, or whatever. You appear to give more credence to such things than to experience. Why?
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I was clearly talking about in fighting, but in case you aren't just trying to argue for the sake of arguing...
You need to not see forms and chi-sau as fighting. There are many places in training where we extend both arms equally to ensure proper facing, coordination, and symmetry. The arms lead each other in training, but we don't apply it literally. The second section of our SNT is the first example of that.
I listed more than that, didn't I?
The footwork is important. Important things are repeated often. Why we finish each section of each form with the same actions. Not redundant if you know the development purpose.
Didn't say po-paai isn't used, but the dummy form being the opponent does this and I do that then po-paai? No. "Single, double, triple kwan-sau po-paai"? lol, no! That's just curriculum filler.
Well, I've had fist fights but never felt the need to murder someone for trying to hit me.
You doubted it on the last page.
So long as you understand how abstract training drills relate to free fighting, and you are doing hard sparring, there is no conflict.
I want to see you try and fight from YJKYM with one fist chambered at your ribs and one taan-sau extended if you actually fight the way you train DCS, for example.
What did your friends that trained with Gary Lam say?
---In discussions in the past we have talked about the ability to bounce an opponent off a wall or other objects as something useful to do with Po Pai Palms. He was in total agreement.
Why would you feel the need to post a video of Gary Lam when you could have just said so-and-so told you?
---Because I haven't spoken to him recently and gotten permission to quote him or use his name. And besides, if you don't know him you and LFJ could simply dismiss anything he has to say. Seeing it on video being done by Gary Lam himself carries much more weight, don't you think? A "picture is worth a 1000 words", and hard to deny.
As mentioned before, Gary Lam has added quite a lot to his VT. This is no secret.
---Maybe so. But interesting that he interprets this the same way as a whole lot of other Wing Chun people. Again, did Gary miss out on the "special transmission" from WSL even though he was close student in HK for many years?
I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve by telling me (or LFJ) what the VT I have experienced is actually like.
---I'm not. It was LFJ that said I was wrong about how Gary Lam views the Po Pai palms. So my question to you would be why you think every WSL student has to conform to your experience and LFJ's experience?
It seems you are always on some kind of super sleuth mission to discredit people using Gary Lam videos, or pictures of WSL, or PB chi sau clips, or whatever. You appear to give more credence to such things than to experience. Why?
---I don't know you or LFJ. I have never seen either of you do Wing Chun since neither of you care to share video. So why should I trust your word when it contradicts so many other things that I have seen and read? You and LFJ seem to be on some kind of a mission to say how poor everyone else's Wing Chun is and how great WSLVT is. At least that is certainly how you both have come across here in the past. I have just seen far too much from various people that have studied with WSL to believe that he had this one-dimensional "everything is about the punch" approach, and certainly too much to believe that this was Ip Man's approach and EVERYONE other than WSL got it wrong! I think we are seeing some heavy Phillip Bayer interpretation in what you guys have been saying. It least that is how it seems when all things are taken into account. Gary Lam may have freely changed things around in his WSLVT. But his basic Wing Chun is still WSL. And his use of the Po Pai Palms is a pretty common one through-out Wing Chun. I find it hard to believe that WSL didn't really teach him that. Gary Lam learned wrong....David Petersen learned wrong....it all just begs disbelief. Surely you can see how people would be skeptical of how you guys have been representing WSL?
---In discussions in the past we have talked about the ability to bounce an opponent off a wall or other objects as something useful to do with Po Pai Palms. He was in total agreement.
Why would you feel the need to post a video of Gary Lam when you could have just said so-and-so told you?
---Because I haven't spoken to him recently and gotten permission to quote him or use his name. And besides, if you don't know him you and LFJ could simply dismiss anything he has to say. Seeing it on video being done by Gary Lam himself carries much more weight, don't you think? A "picture is worth a 1000 words", and hard to deny.
As mentioned before, Gary Lam has added quite a lot to his VT. This is no secret.
---Maybe so. But interesting that he interprets this the same way as a whole lot of other Wing Chun people. Again, did Gary miss out on the "special transmission" from WSL even though he was close student in HK for many years?
I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve by telling me (or LFJ) what the VT I have experienced is actually like.
---I'm not. It was LFJ that said I was wrong about how Gary Lam views the Po Pai palms. So my question to you would be why you think every WSL student has to conform to your experience and LFJ's experience?
It seems you are always on some kind of super sleuth mission to discredit people using Gary Lam videos, or pictures of WSL, or PB chi sau clips, or whatever. You appear to give more credence to such things than to experience. Why?
---I don't know you or LFJ. I have never seen either of you do Wing Chun since neither of you care to share video. So why should I trust your word when it contradicts so many other things that I have seen and read? You and LFJ seem to be on some kind of a mission to say how poor everyone else's Wing Chun is and how great WSLVT is. At least that is certainly how you both have come across here in the past. I have just seen far too much from various people that have studied with WSL to believe that he had this one-dimensional "everything is about the punch" approach, and certainly too much to believe that this was Ip Man's approach and EVERYONE other than WSL got it wrong! I think we are seeing some heavy Phillip Bayer interpretation in what you guys have been saying. It least that is how it seems when all things are taken into account. Gary Lam may have freely changed things around in his WSLVT. But his basic Wing Chun is still WSL. And his use of the Po Pai Palms is a pretty common one through-out Wing Chun. I find it hard to believe that WSL didn't really teach him that. Gary Lam learned wrong....David Petersen learned wrong....it all just begs disbelief. Surely you can see how people would be skeptical of how you guys have been representing WSL?
I only made a comment about the main purpose of their mattress training as I've heard from many GLWC practitioners. If they want want to imagining killing people in addition, it's not "wrong" unless they actually do it.
Never said so. You can piss off with that line trying to sow discord all the time.
GL has openly reworked his WC into his own system, which differs from WSLVT. That's his choice.
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