Food for thought on the "Bai Jong" or "ready position"

[guy b.]

Because I haven't spoken to him recently and gotten permission to quote him or use his name.

Ask his permission and see what he says.

And besides, if you don't know him you and LFJ could simply dismiss anything he has to say.

I would have no reason to doubt the opinions of a direct Gary Lam student on the VT of Gary Lam

eeing it on video being done by Gary Lam himself carries much more weight, don't you think? A "picture is worth a 1000 words", and hard to deny.

Gary Lam does lots of things on video. The word of a Gary Lam student would be much more convincing to me actually.

But interesting that he interprets this the same way as a whole lot of other Wing Chun people. Again, did Gary miss out on the "special transmission" from WSL even though he was close student in HK for many years?

I think the Gary Lam po pai training with matresses is fairly unique. I have not seen many other people doing it. Have you (I mean before they saw it on a Gary Lam video)?

I don't think I have ever claimed that Gary Lam missed out on anything. I think he has changed his VT, it is no secret. But he has also taught some very good people. It is what it is.

It was LFJ that said I was wrong about how Gary Lam views the Po Pai palms.

Actually I think LFJ just ventured an explanation for the emphasis on projection with the po pai based on what he had heard from someone who trained with Gary Lam. This seemed to get you into a bit of a frenzy of detective work on the Gary Lam video evidence available, rather than just being a piece of information to you.

my question to you would be why you think every WSL student has to conform to your experience and LFJ's experience?

In the nicest possible way, I think you are projecting. I am interested in talking about VT and the reasons people have for doing things. I am happy to share, and I won't be annoyed if you do something differently. I ask questions because I would like to understand, not because I wish to make you look stupid or anything else.

why should I trust your word when it contradicts so many other things that I have seen and read?

Have you trained WSL VT? I have not trained Mainland wing chun and I trust your word on it. Why would I not? I also trust that the explanation you gave about Weng Chun was your best. I have seen some videos of Mainland wing chun that don't look great, but I don't let it worry me that much.

I think we are seeing some heavy Phillip Bayer interpretation in what you guys have been saying.

I don't represent Philipp Bayer. I think he is very good, that is all.

Surely you can see how people would be skeptical of how you guys have been representing WSL?

I don't think anybody else has reacted with skepticism. Some people have reacted with interest, and some have not reacted. I guess they are not interested? I think you are about the only person I have encountered who makes it a personal mission to track down the truth and unmask wrong doers whenever a WSL VT discussion comes up.

I guess I like to talk about WSL VT because I am interested in it. Please believe that I don't do it to make you feel worthless or to denigrate your wing chun in any way. Questions are just questions. If you feel that they make you angry then please, just don't answer.

 

[LFJ]

Actually I think LFJ just ventured an explanation for the emphasis on projection with the po pai based on what he had heard from someone who trained with Gary Lam. This seemed to get you into a bit of a frenzy of detective work on the Gary Lam video evidence available, rather than just being a piece of information to you.

Exactly. No idea why this person is always so confrontational. I was simply sharing a piece of information.

 

[KPM]

I only made a comment about the main purpose of their mattress training as I've heard from many GLWC practitioners. If they want want to imagining killing people in addition, it's not "wrong" unless they actually do it.

---Well. After I mentioned the Po Pai and Gary Lam you felt the need to write:

I've heard from many GLWC practitioners, that when they do this mattress training it's really more of way to safely release their punching power on a partner, because the structures they use are the same as their punching.

--I apologize if I misinterpreted, but that sure sounded to me like you were saying I was wrong about how Gary Lam uses Po Pai.


Never said so. You can piss off with that line trying to sow discord all the time.

---Every time something is mentioned about a WSL student that doesn't conform to your beliefs about what WSLVT should be, you say they didn't learn properly or have changed things. So who is sowing discord?

 

[KPM]

Exactly. No idea why this person is always so confrontational. I was simply sharing a piece of information.

And you are the one making snarky comments about instructional videos. So don't try and act all innocent here.

 

[LFJ]

--I apologize if I misinterpreted, but that sure sounded to me like you were saying I was wrong about how Gary Lam uses Po Pai.

Just clarifying the main purpose of launching people into mattresses, as I've heard from them.

The primary function of po-paai, to me, is not to push people away. There are many ways it can be used in abstract training drills though. It's important to understand how the abstract relates to free fighting.

---Every time something is mentioned about a WSL student that doesn't conform to your beliefs about what WSLVT should be, you say they didn't learn properly or have changed things. So who is sowing discord?

There are some who are known to have not learned fully. Nothing we can do about that. Many others have changed things, but done so openly. That is their choice and their right. I don't appreciate the way you spin things to make me say they are all wrong or have poor VT when I have not.

 

[guy b.]

Just clarifying the main purpose of launching people into mattresses, as I've heard from them.

The primary function of po-paai, to me, is not to push people away. There are many ways it can be used in abstract training drills though. It's important to understand how the abstract relates to free fighting.

Clearing the way to keep punching, and opening new attacking lines are 2 ways it can be used. Not possible if you launch your opponent across the room or down the stairs. But I would agree, it has more to it, e.g. training facing.

There are some who are known to have not learned fully. Nothing we can do about that. Many others have changed things, but done so openly. That is their choice and their right. I don't appreciate the way you spin things to make me say they are all wrong or have poor VT when I have not.

Absolutely. Wan Kam Leung would be another who has changed the system. Again no secret. Nobody is saying that these guys didn't learn properly or did something wrong in terms of the changes they made. I am sure they have their reasons and it is up to them what they do. Importantly neither of them pretends they didn't make changes.

KPM you are really barking up the wrong tree.

 

[guy b.]

Every time something is mentioned about a WSL student that doesn't conform to your beliefs about what WSLVT should be, you say they didn't learn properly or have changed things. So who is sowing discord?

So far you have given us David Peterson, pics of WSL messing around, someone called Steven Joffe, and Gary Lam. I think what is happening is that you are searching high and low for pictures and videos that look different to what LFJ or I say. Because you are doing this, you are cherrypicking people who have changed things, seminar students, people who have a tangential relationship with WSL VT, people who have mixed it with other things, and so on. You seem to be seeking to verify a pre-made conclusion you have about what we say on the forum; i.e. that we are talking nonsense.

You did exactly the same thing when we having a discussion about Southern Praying Mantis: I posted a series of clips demonstrating what I felt as a former practitioner of this style to be a good solid representation of the way it works. I think I mentioned that it was pretty rare to find this for SPM, and that mostly what is presented is complete nonsense.

You then scoured the internet for things that looked different. I don't really understand why you do this? Do you have a need to "know" more than everyone about everything? It must be difficult to learn things if you approach all information in this way?

 

[geezer]

Personally, I rather like it when KPM throws out some of that contrarian stuff. Like shots of WSL, David Peterson, and others demonstrating tan-da when LFJ was saying that it wasn't used in WSL-VT. Then you guys came back and explained those clips from your PB-WSL-VT perspective. You may find KPM's posting style annoying, but it has given you the opportunity to clarify your position on a lot of things.

The problem comes when both sides get locked into a back and forth and nobody is willing to say, "OK, I've made my point. You can take it or leave it. Let's move on!" --Well, sometimes you've done that. I'd like to see that happen more often. From everybody.

Now I've made MY point. You all can take it or leave it. Let's move on!

 

[geezer]

Here is Sifu Lam showing how to use the Po Pai:

OK, Here's an old clip of Leung Ting teaching the 1st section of his "WT Chi-Sau Sections" in Germany. It involves one palm pinning the opponent's arm across his body and the other, lower palm striking. In WT this is not seen exactly as the "po-pai palms" from the dummy, but it is very similar to what Gary Lam demonstrated above. The result in practice is the same kind of powerful push. I have done demos of this bouncing students off mats stacked against the wall the same way GL's guys use the mattress. Skip the long intro and check out the technique at around 9:00 - 9:15.

Now to my point. In practice, this is trained as a push. In a fight, you can adjust your timing and energy so that the lower palm drives deep and is a penetrating strike. So all that debate a few pages back about whether a palm push is useful is moot. You don't like pushing? Then strike with your palm. Palms can really hurt!

 

[Danny T]

Now to my point. In practice, this is trained as a push. In a fight, you can adjust your timing and energy so that the lower palm drives deep and is a penetrating strike. So all that debate a few pages back about whether a palm push is useful is moot. You don't like pushing? Then strike with your palm. Palms can really hurt!

Po-Pai and palm actions can also be punches or a palm with one hand and a strike with the other or a push with one and a punch with the other. For us anyway it is trained as such.

 

[guy b.]

Personally, I rather like it when KPM throws out some of that contrarian stuff. Like shots of WSL, David Peterson, and others demonstrating tan-da when LFJ was saying that it wasn't used in WSL-VT. Then you guys came back and explained those clips from your PB-WSL-VT perspective. You may find KPM's posting style annoying, but it has given you the opportunity to clarify your position on a lot of things.

I've got no problem with genuine questions. It is the seeming desire to prove some kind of systematic disinformation that gets tiring after a while.

Now I've made MY point. You all can take it or leave it. Let's move on!

Good advice

 

[KPM]

I've got no problem with genuine questions. It is the seeming desire to prove some kind of systematic disinformation that gets tiring after a while.

And it is sweeping statements that seem to be far too generalized ...... and that are obviously inaccurate in that context ..... that gets tiring to me. But Ok. I'll just try and ignore such things in the future.

 

[KPM]

Exactly. No idea why this person is always so confrontational. I was simply sharing a piece of information.

Now this! This is trying to rewrite forum history! But whatever you need to believe to keep a clear conscience. Pointing out your little games is getting far too tiresome as well. Again, I will try and ignore such things in the future.

 

[KPM]

I don't think I have ever claimed that Gary Lam missed out on anything. I think he has changed his VT, it is no secret. But he has also taught some very good people. It is what it is.



Actually I think LFJ just ventured an explanation for the emphasis on projection with the po pai based on what he had heard from someone who trained with Gary Lam. This seemed to get you into a bit of a frenzy of detective work on the Gary Lam video evidence available, rather than just being a piece of information to you.



In the nicest possible way, I think you are projecting. I am interested in talking about VT and the reasons people have for doing things. I am happy to share, and I won't be annoyed if you do something differently. I ask questions because I would like to understand, not because I wish to make you look stupid or anything else.



Have you trained WSL VT? I have not trained Mainland wing chun and I trust your word on it. Why would I not? I also trust that the explanation you gave about Weng Chun was your best. I have seen some videos of Mainland wing chun that don't look great, but I don't let it worry me that much.



I don't represent Philipp Bayer. I think he is very good, that is all.



I don't think anybody else has reacted with skepticism. Some people have reacted with interest, and some have not reacted. I guess they are not interested? I think you are about the only person I have encountered who makes it a personal mission to track down the truth and unmask wrong doers whenever a WSL VT discussion comes up.

I guess I like to talk about WSL VT because I am interested in it. Please believe that I don't do it to make you feel worthless or to denigrate your wing chun in any way. Questions are just questions. If you feel that they make you angry then please, just don't answer.

Now, ALL of this is big turnaround for you. And don't act all innocent and claim this has been your attitude all along. Because people that have been here and have been following along will see right through you. But if you stick to what you say above as we go forward now, you and I will have no problems.

 

[guy b.]

And it is sweeping statements that seem to be far too generalized ...... and that are obviously inaccurate in that context ..... that gets tiring to me. But Ok. I'll just try and ignore such things in the future.

Just so that we are on the same page, if you are unsure which VT group I am talking about, then assume it is the one I train with. I will make every effort to identify who I am talking about as precisely as I can in future, but I would also ask that you step back a bit when you feel yourself getting worked up about something posted on the forum.

 

[guy b.]

Now, ALL of this is big turnaround for you. And don't act all innocent and claim this has been your attitude all along.

I haven't ever said GL missed out on any teaching from WSL. And I do trust your statements about what constututes the Mainland WC in which you train. Why would I not?

I believe that most of our arguments have been about the history of wing chun, which I think belong to everyone. But I will try not to argue with you about this again.

Because people that have been here and have been following along will see right through you. But if you stick to what you say above as we go forward now, you and I will have no problems.

I don't think there is anything to see through. Again I feel like you have some kind of detective mission to out me for making incorrect statements about VT? I feel like this is a warning that you "have your eye on me", or something? I don't understand why you feel this personal vendetta towards me.

 

[LFJ]

Now this! This is trying to rewrite forum history! But whatever you need to believe to keep a clear conscience. Pointing out your little games is getting far too tiresome as well. Again, I will try and ignore such things in the future.

Forum history? Can you not just let past disagreements go for fucksake?

All I did when I came to this thread was share a piece of information.

Never said anyone was wrong or didn't learn correctly. You've been trying very hard to sow discord once again by putting words into my mouth. Your little game is not appreciated.

Please just stop trying to make an argument out of every goddamn thing. Otherwise, normal discussions here will be impossible. There's no reason we should be doing this.

 

[geezer]

And it is sweeping statements that seem to be far too generalized ...... and that are obviously inaccurate in that context ..... that gets tiring to me. But Ok. I'll just try and ignore such things in the future.

...er ...How about ignoring them in the present?

I believe that most of our arguments have been about the history of wing chun, which I think belong to everyone. But I will try not to argue with you about this again.

Yay! That's the spirit!

Forum history? Can you not just let past disagreements go for fucksake?

OMG! an F-Bomb! ...But in spite of that, I have to agree with the bolded part above.

Please just stop trying to make an argument out of every goddamn thing. Otherwise, normal discussions here will be impossible. There's no reason we should be doing this.

...And I definitely agree with this last part! Are we moving on yet?

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Moving on!

 

[KPM]

The weather was nice today so I finally got around to shooting that video I promised. But no training partners were available, so BOB will have to do!