Food for thought on the "Bai Jong" or "ready position"
- Thread starter KPM
- Start date
To be fair KPM, there is a lot of nonsense which has been committed to video over the years by people that knew it was nonsense or at least misleading.
I think it is fair to say that GL has added quite a lot of "padding" to his system over the years.
Personally I would always be more inclined to trust the experience of people who have trained directly. You do seem to have a desire to show that WSL VT is not what people who train WSL VT say it is, wouldn't you say?
I think LFJ's interpretation of the Po Pai is interesting. Personally I have problems with Po Pai as discussed previously, after all if you can Po Pai then you can hit. Why not just hit?
Po Pai is like deliberately firing a blank (unless you happen to be standing next to a cliff edge or a vat of industrial chemicals), which makes LFJs explanation sound quite sensible
A "shocking" Po Pai is sometimes said to clear the way to hit. But again if you can Po Pai you can hit. Under this interpretation you would be exchanging hitting immediately for hitting "better" against a shocked opponent. Again problematical wrt WSLVT concepts but could make an argument in this direction I guess.
To be fair KPM, there is a lot of nonsense which has been committed to video over the years by people that knew it was nonsense or at least misleading.
---These are not "mass produced" videos. Gary Lam made these videos primarily for his people. He shot them in his backyard during workshops he was doing for his people.
I think it is fair to say that GL has added quite a lot of "padding" to his system over the years.
---Maybe so. But what he showed for Po Pai made perfect sense to me and is in line with how other Wing Chun people use Po Pai. So to say it is just another one of those "training for the punch" things seems a bit off to me. Is everything in today's WSLVT only for training to punch?
Personally I would always be more inclined to trust the experience of people who have trained directly. You do seem to have a desire to show that WSL VT is not what people who train WSL VT say it is, wouldn't you say?
---Not at all. I just have come to doubt what you and LFJ keep saying WSLVT is, because I keep seeing so many contradictions to what you guys have been saying. So now I'm starting to wonder if maybe your comments should actually be seen as specific to PB's version of WSLVT.
I think LFJ's interpretation of the Po Pai is interesting. Personally I have problems with Po Pai as discussed previously, after all if you can Po Pai then you can hit. Why not just hit?
----Why just hit when you can launch the opponent across the room and land him on his ****??? Maybe there is someone else quickly approaching and launching one guy away from you so you can deal with the other is the thing to do? Maybe you are launching him into a wall or a parked car...which is going to do more damage than just hitting him with a fist! Maybe you are launching him into that other person that is fast approaching so that you stop them both! Why does EVERYTHING have to be about a punch???
---These are not "mass produced" videos. Gary Lam made these videos primarily for his people. He shot them in his backyard during workshops he was doing for his people.
I think it is fair to say that GL has added quite a lot of "padding" to his system over the years.
---Maybe so. But what he showed for Po Pai made perfect sense to me and is in line with how other Wing Chun people use Po Pai. So to say it is just another one of those "training for the punch" things seems a bit off to me. Is everything in today's WSLVT only for training to punch?
Personally I would always be more inclined to trust the experience of people who have trained directly. You do seem to have a desire to show that WSL VT is not what people who train WSL VT say it is, wouldn't you say?
---Not at all. I just have come to doubt what you and LFJ keep saying WSLVT is, because I keep seeing so many contradictions to what you guys have been saying. So now I'm starting to wonder if maybe your comments should actually be seen as specific to PB's version of WSLVT.
I think LFJ's interpretation of the Po Pai is interesting. Personally I have problems with Po Pai as discussed previously, after all if you can Po Pai then you can hit. Why not just hit?
----Why just hit when you can launch the opponent across the room and land him on his ****??? Maybe there is someone else quickly approaching and launching one guy away from you so you can deal with the other is the thing to do? Maybe you are launching him into a wall or a parked car...which is going to do more damage than just hitting him with a fist! Maybe you are launching him into that other person that is fast approaching so that you stop them both! Why does EVERYTHING have to be about a punch???
...in pictures and instructional tapes.
You don't bother asking people who actually train it and doubt what they say regardless, why?
I never said the action is only used to train punching. I only shared what I've heard many GLWC practitioners say regarding why they launch people into mattresses.
I respect that WSVT, at least according to what I understand from Guy and LFJ, is very focused on punching. Perhaps that narrow focus is it's greatest strength. Some lineages are high quality, some are not...and some (like my own) are best described as a mixed bag.
In general, I admire coherent, high quality instruction, but I also embrace the diversity of different lineages. I see that breadth as an asset in the overall system. Others obviously differ.
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
But why Po Pai rather than punch? In what way is it preferable?
I would say that you can answer that yourself if you consider what the relative advantages of a palm strike over a strike with the fist are.
Consider the vertical palm in Dan Chi. Why a palm rather than a punch? Palms stick and control better than fists. You can use a palm more easily to open, divert, deflect, and control your opponent's arms as you slide through their defenses. Fists can accomplish these tasks, but it takes a higher level of skill.
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
----------------------------------------------------------
Best weapon when the path is there-sometimes that's punching, sometimes palming etc
I wrote just above:
Maybe there is someone else quickly approaching and launching one guy away from you so you can deal with the other is the thing to do? Maybe you are launching him into a wall or a parked car...which is going to do more damage than just hitting him with a fist! Maybe you are launching him into that other person that is fast approaching so that you stop them both! Why does EVERYTHING have to be about a punch???
I think that if there is the opportunity to forcefully bounce someone off of a nearby wall or car or other large object this is far preferable than simply punching them. Just seems like common sense to me!
Great times for po pai: into the path of a passing train, near a busy road, edge of the roof of a tall building, into the crossfire from battling criminal gangs having a shootout, near a dangerous wild animal that hasn't seen you yet, beside an open blast furnace, on the edge of a vat of strong acid, in an airlock which is about to be opened jettisoning bad guys into space, near large pristine looking plate glass windows, next to an operating piece of very dangerous machinery like a big circular saw that someone left on for some reason.
Places not so good for po pai: everywhere else
Places not so good for po pai: everywhere else
You forgot about the swimming pool. When your drunk uncle Al needs to sober up and behave, po-pai him into the pool. Works best in the cooler months when the water temperature is below 50 degrees F.
But seriously, didn't you get Joy's post? A palm doesn't have to be a push. It can hit hard and deep.
^^^ Sorry, I guess you did see Joy's POV. I missed your last post while writing mine. No matter.
Anyway, there's the two things you mentioned and then the third thing is how palms can open up a line to attack more easily than a fist. Look how the po-pai section moves on the MYJ.
Anyway, there's the two things you mentioned and then the third thing is how palms can open up a line to attack more easily than a fist. Look how the po-pai section moves on the MYJ.
You forgot about the swimming pool. When your drunk uncle Al needs to sober up and behave, po-pai him into the pool. Works best in the cooler months when the water temperature is below 50 degrees F.
Of course, Uncle Al needs to collide with less dangerous things than the above. Swimming pools, deck chairs, undergrowth, kids toys, queues of people, bags and coats, cheap collapsible tables laden with food. Those are the ideal situations for po pai-ing Uncle Al. You need to be careful selecting the right level of lethality when you po pai.
Worst case scenario is when you have a bad guy present who really merits a po pai into a sharp spikey object, and all you have around is a swimming pool or some chairs
No I saw Joy's post about po pai as a strike. In that case why strike with 2 hands?
... Same as with double punches, or better yet two simultaneous punches and a kick! Why? To impress the ladies, of course.
Personally, I believe that most of the time, most people are better off focusing on one good strike at a time. Simultaneous double shots, whether punches or palms seem like low percentage moves to me.
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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!!! Maybe we are very far apart in our understanding of wing chun. In good wing chun the body acts as a unit. Two hands can work together
ina subtle way not doing the same thing. I am surprised that you have not learned that. Ask your sifu if you have a good one.
You mean to say that you are never standing near a wall? You are never in a parking lot near parked automobiles? You are never out and about near trees? You are never inside near a restaurant table or pool table? Just where do you expect to be if you ever have to use your WSLVT skills to defend yourself?
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