Fixing the training model

[pdg]

I was saying whatever because I don't care what you call your Korean Karate forms.

When you learn a little respect and intelligence, let me know and maybe we can have a reasonable discussion.

 

[Tez3]

You got any video showing this?



Er what? I studied shotokan karate for 8 years, obtaining a 2nd degree black belt (nidan)

Video lol, your default answer to everything, actually I have hundreds of hours and if you think I'm going to go through them point by point you are very much mistaken, as usual.


Ah so now it's a couple of years now ok, wonderful, I've actually, really, studied karate for over 40 years then added MMA ( MT, Judo, BJJ etc) on top of that for 20 years. I had adult instructors as I remember you said you were being corrected by "It was a 12 year old brown belt who went on to become a 14 year old black belt." Posted Nov 12 2016. You went on to say that it basically a McDojo. "my former instructor, he was elderly, and he really wanted to motivate the kids he was teaching. Additionally, the kid's parents really pressed him to promote their kid"

This is the reply from Chris Parker which I agreed with then and now.
"When you were in your 20's? Well, firstly, labelling a 12 year old kid who is doing what he thinks is correct a "twerp" might not be the most charitable thing you could do… but, more realistically, I'd question what real education you would receive from someone that young… sure, they might have had some idea of how it was supposed to be done (the kata), but I'd question the level of their understanding as to "why"… as a result, I'm not overtly shocked that such a training experience was not optimal for you… but again, that's not the fault of kata training, but of the lack of any real depth or understanding in the way it was presented to you (in that instance)."

so you were in a dojo that gave black belts to 14 year olds who went on to teach, you cannot claim to have a decent understanding of kata, kata applications. We know you don't like them, you've spent years telling us. You don't do them, fine, I don't do brain surgery but in the right hands it's very efficacious as is kata.

 

[Hanzou]

Video lol, your default answer to everything, actually I have hundreds of hours and if you think I'm going to go through them point by point you are very much mistaken, as usual.

You continue to disappoint me Tez.

Ah so now it's a couple of years now ok, wonderful, I've actually, really, studied karate for over 40 years then added MMA ( MT, Judo, BJJ etc) on top of that for 20 years. I had adult instructors as I remember you said you were being corrected by "It was a 12 year old brown belt who went on to become a 14 year old black belt." Posted Nov 12 2016. You went on to say that it basically a McDojo. "my former instructor, he was elderly, and he really wanted to motivate the kids he was teaching. Additionally, the kid's parents really pressed him to promote their kid"

This is the reply from Chris Parker which I agreed with then and now.
"When you were in your 20's? Well, firstly, labelling a 12 year old kid who is doing what he thinks is correct a "twerp" might not be the most charitable thing you could do… but, more realistically, I'd question what real education you would receive from someone that young… sure, they might have had some idea of how it was supposed to be done (the kata), but I'd question the level of their understanding as to "why"… as a result, I'm not overtly shocked that such a training experience was not optimal for you… but again, that's not the fault of kata training, but of the lack of any real depth or understanding in the way it was presented to you (in that instance)."

so you were in a dojo that gave black belts to 14 year olds who went on to teach, you cannot claim to have a decent understanding of kata, kata applications. We know you don't like them, you've spent years telling us. You don't do them, fine, I don't do brain surgery but in the right hands it's very efficacious as is kata.

Frankly, I think Ian Abernethy himself could teach me kata, and I'd view it exactly the same.

 

[pdg]

so you were in a dojo that gave black belts to 14 year olds who went on to teach, you cannot claim to have a decent understanding of kata, kata applications. We know you don't like them, you've spent years telling us. You don't do them, fine, I don't do brain surgery but in the right hands it's very efficacious as is kata

Frankly, I think Ian Abernethy himself could teach me kata, and I'd view it exactly the same.

Anyone can teach a pattern/kata (insert terminology here) as a sequence of moves. It's not hard. It's not even hard to tell you where you have your position wrong for the sequence.

What nobody can do is make you understand what you're doing and why.

If you have a preconceived (or postconceived come to think of it) notion that it's nothing more than a dance and keep your mind closed to that, then all it'll give you is a dance.

Horse. Water. Drink.

I guess Hanzou isn't a thirsty horse.

 

[Hanzou]

I guess Hanzou isn't a thirsty horse.

I'm always thirsty, I just dont drink poo water.

 

[Tez3]

You continue to disappoint me Tez.



Frankly, I think Ian Abernethy himself could teach me kata, and I'd view it exactly the same.

No, I don't disappoint you in the least, you don't care what I or anyone thinks so it's irrelevant.

Iain doesn't actually teach kata, anyone can go to his seminars and learn whether they know kata or not. They can but many won't because they were taught by an old man who was easily swayed and a 14 year old boy. Still, his loss, not ours.

 

[now disabled]

I'm always thirsty, I just dont drink poo water.

No you are a person that only accepts things you want to ......which is your right btw.........the point is that yu sir do have very narrow ideas on things , jump on band wagons and are totally unwilling to answer things ...well you do but only bits you want to.

In the MA world there are many opinions and rightly so however to say as you do does show somewhat a lack of understanding in certain areas

 

[drop bear]

You continue to disappoint me Tez.



Frankly, I think Ian Abernethy himself could teach me kata, and I'd view it exactly the same.

Iran abernethy works off some strange distinctions though.

He tries to work off a consensual/non consensual distinction that kind of ties his ideas in knots a bit.

For me kata sits about the same as animal walks. Or Zuu training.

So there is still a place for it.

Of course this kind of also changes the focus of kata.

So for example when people poo poo at acrobatics and then also complain they can't match a mma fighter due to physicality.

Well mabye if they jumped around during kata they might have a little more gas in the tank.

 

[pdg]

Of course this kind of also changes the focus of kata.

So for example when people poo poo at acrobatics and then also complain they can't match a mma fighter due to physicality.

Well mabye if they jumped around during kata they might have a little more gas in the tank.

What is the focus of it currently then?

Who complained about the physicality?

Do people really turn up to a class, gently run through a kata or two then call it day and go home - then conclude that they're extreme fighters?

 

[Hanzou]

No you are a person that only accepts things you want to ......which is your right btw.........the point is that yu sir do have very narrow ideas on things , jump on band wagons and are totally unwilling to answer things ...well you do but only bits you want to.

In the MA world there are many opinions and rightly so however to say as you do does show somewhat a lack of understanding in certain areas

As in all things, there are opinions and there are facts. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but the simple fact of the matter is that there's a reason that certain styles simply don't appear in MMA. Silly excuses like MMA favors grappling, or your go-to deadly technique is against the rules simply doesn't cut it.

I would be very pleased to see a Bagua exponent "walk the circle" in the Octagon, but we all know that's NEVER going to happen.

 

[drop bear]

What is the focus of it currently then?

Who complained about the physicality?

Do people really turn up to a class, gently run through a kata or two then call it day and go home - then conclude that they're extreme fighters?

The focus is to try and relate kata to fighting as closely as you can. And so just screw fighting up. Kata is nothing like fighting.

Now if you relate kata to movement then honking out a ridiculous 360 jump or being a preying mantis where there is no reason to be makes more sense.

People treat conditioning like it is foreign magic. That the one part of your ability that can be most influenced by training. Is the one part they assume just happens to other people.

 

[Tez3]

but the simple fact of the matter is that there's a reason that certain styles simply don't appear in MMA.

No single style appears in MMA, that's why it's called 'Mixed'. Different techniques from different styles all mixed up flowing from each other, of course if you are stuck in the 'mixed = BJJ and MT' model then you won't understand. You don't have a BJJ person coming into the cage just doing that and nothing else, nor do you have a Muay Thai fighter just doing that so the argument picking just some styles and saying it doesn't work is invalid.

The focus is to try and relate kata to fighting as closely as you can. And so just screw fighting up. Kata is nothing like fighting.

Actually no that's not the focus of kata, it's not for 'fighting' it's for defending oneself when attacked or about to be attacked. It's not designed for fighting in competitions or outside though in modern times it has been adapted for kumite competitions. Kata isn't like fighting, that's not the point of it.
Iain ( not Iran) Abernethy doesn't teach fighting ( though he's a damn good fighter) he teaches the practical application of karate which is a system of unarmed self defence, sometimes practised as a sport. If you don't understand Bunkai then you won't 'get' what he is doing.

 

[now disabled]

As in all things, there are opinions and there are facts. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but the simple fact of the matter is that there's a reason that certain styles simply don't appear in MMA. Silly excuses like MMA favors grappling, or your go-to deadly technique is against the rules simply doesn't cut it.

I would be very pleased to see a Bagua exponent "walk the circle" in the Octagon, but we all know that's NEVER going to happen.

Sir, fact is you only pick certain things you wanna pick and even then you cherry pick bits from that, That does show a lack of understanding and at times total disrespect.

 

[drop bear]

Actually no that's not the focus of kata, it's not for 'fighting' it's for defending oneself when attacked or about to be attacked. It's not designed for fighting in competitions or outside though in modern times it has been adapted for kumite competitions. Kata isn't like fighting, that's not the point of it.
Iain ( not Iran) Abernethy doesn't teach fighting ( though he's a damn good fighter) he teaches the practical application of karate which is a system of unarmed self defence, sometimes practised as a sport. If you don't understand Bunkai then you won't 'get' what he is doing.

Which is where Abernathy ties himself up conceptually.

He tries to create a separation between fighting and self defense and basically can't.

And so will go from fighting isn't self defence and here is my multiple attacker sparring drill.

Of he won't use a boxing cover because that's fighting but will instead use lomenchenko style grasping because somehow that is self defence.

And bunkai is a really good example of how people mess up kata application

And so will look at say the chamber of a karate punch to find the secret application rather than it just being a structural concept.

And then because the karate punch leaves your head open and so will get you unfairly panel beaten by any decent striker in sparring

Instead of taking that feedback and fixing the trading model. They go and make this fighting self defense distinction so that the model still works. It just never works where people can experience it.

 

[Tez3]

Which is where Abernathy tries himself up conceptually.

He tries to create a separation between fighting and self defense and basically can't.

And so will go from fighting isn't self defence and here is my multiple attacker sparring drill.

Of he won't use a boxing cover because that's fighting but will instead use lomenchenko style grasping because somehow that is self defence.

And bunkai is a really good example of how people mess up kata application

And so will look at say the chamber of a karate punch to find the secret application rather than it just being a structural concept.

And then because the karate punch leaves your head open and so will get you unfairly panel beaten by any decent striker in sparring

Instead of taking that feedback and fixing the trading model. They go and make this fighting self defense distinction so that the model still works. It just never works where people can experience it.

I love that, having never met him, trained with him etc you think you are analysing his concepts accurately. Ah well, I wouldn't have expected anything different to be honest, people see the word 'kata' and go into a frenzy of ignorance, frothing at the mouth at the thought of anything other than BJJ and MMA 'working'.

If you have more than 30 years kata ad Bunkai training behind your words I'd even consider what you said, but you don't. It's like me telling you all about Australia and it's culture having never been there and only watching Neighbours to base my ideas on.

 

[drop bear]

So here we go. This is not just learning mobility and balance by turning on one foot.

It's a self defense move.

Yes a wizzer is a real thing. But it is an ugly way to try to apply a wizzer.

 

[drop bear]

I love that, having never met him, trained with him etc you think you are analysing his concepts accurately. Ah well, I wouldn't have expected anything different to be honest, people see the word 'kata' and go into a frenzy of ignorance, frothing at the mouth at the thought of anything other than BJJ and MMA 'working'.

If you have more than 30 years kata ad Bunkai training behind your words I'd even consider what you said, but you don't. It's like me telling you all about Australia and it's culture having never been there and only watching Neighbours to base my ideas on.

I am notorious for not just accepting the voice of authority.

Ironically when I had this conversation with ian although he didn't agree with me. He was really good about it.

 

[Tez3]

I am notorious for not just accepting the voice of authority.

Ironically when I had this conversation with ian although he didn't agree with me. He was really good about it.

LOL, of course he was, he's a gentleman. He has also spent a lot longer than you working on this so can be a considered an expert on his own theories.

 

[drop bear]

LOL, of course he was, he's a gentleman. He has also spent a lot longer than you working on this so can be a considered an expert on his own theories.

But so am I.

I am an expert on fighting vs self defense. I just don't have the following.

But I still have to apply that in a way that plugs the holes in my logic.

 

[Hanzou]

No single style appears in MMA, that's why it's called 'Mixed'. Different techniques from different styles all mixed up flowing from each other, of course if you are stuck in the 'mixed = BJJ and MT' model then you won't understand. You don't have a BJJ person coming into the cage just doing that and nothing else, nor do you have a Muay Thai fighter just doing that so the argument picking just some styles and saying it doesn't work is invalid.

Ryan Hall, McKenzie Dern, and Kron Gracie show otherwise. They're essentially just adding punches and kicks to Bjj and having their way with people.