Fitness for MA training

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
First -

The main difference between what Pavel recommends and what "traditional" lifting promotes is the use of irradiation rather than isolation. When you do anything, be it a punch, a kick, lifting a box, sitting down or standing up, the muscles work together, not separately. The idea of isolating a particular muscle group works, sure. There are years and years of bodybuilders that can show how big they got from isolation. But the big name weight lifters, the guys that could uproot buildings, developed their power not from isolation but from irradiation (i.e. using coordinated lifting rather than picking out only one muscle group). This is the benefit of Pavel's training - unified, coordinated, functional strength.

Compound movement vs Isolation. Nothing new there. Widely known already. The term "irradiation" is a new buzzword, however.

Second -

Defining "obsolete" could be a chore. The kettlebell's main difference from a similarly weighted dumbbell is that the weight is not centrally located along the same axis as the grip. You can lift a 35 pound dumbbell up over your head in a single hand press pretty easily, I'd gather. Interestingly enough, doing the same press with a 16kg KB proves much more difficult since the weight is located elsewhere (in my Army office, among trained and fit soldiers, I have only found 2 other than myself that is able to perform even a single rep of an inverted KB press, much less train with multiple sets of 5 - 10; one guy almost KO'd himself as he attempted one inverted press and nearly dropped the KB on his own head!).

That is called leverage or the fulcrum effect. The difference between KB and a dumbell is that the KB places the weight farther out. That is simple leverage which requires more effort to move the weight. Simple physics.

Nothing wrong with KB. It certainly no magic there. And certainly not worth $200. Not even $20 LOL. You can just do your regular dumbell or weight lifting exercise and just DO NOT forget your forearm curl routine. Then you would be ripping the same benefit from KB training.

Old doesn't mean obsolete. The problem is that many folks throw out the old ways with the old equipment, and forget what the old equipment was for in the first place. Then, when they pick up the old equipment out of curiosity, they no longer know how to use it to produce the results gained by those who had no other methods available to them.

Old doesn't in itself mean obsolete. KB is certainly not obsolete.
I simply have a strong dose of skepticsm of people getting all the "woo! Whaaa!" from some "secret, ancient" techniques or tools or whatever. Training is scientific conditioning. It can be explained by science. If you understand the science behind it, then you may be able to improve or adopt or discard it. Basically, you just need to know how and why it works, and not simply take someone's words for it, especially not that of someone who is also selling it. lol

 

[Erkki]

The main benefits I see from KB training for MAists is the heavy cardio from swings and snatches and the ballistic shock training you get from snatches, cleans, etc. Having to tense your whole body for an explosive movement while maintaining root while this 36 pound canonball is trying to throw you around is a direct carryover into martial arts.
Like some have mentioned, a lot of the exercises can be done with a dumbbell. But they won't give the same results. Take the snatch, for instance. You can do the same thing with a dumbbell, however, you don't have the bell swinging over and hitting you in the arm. That makes you explosively tense your whole body for just an instant so that you can absorb the shock. The same applies for cleans. For windmills, you are not required to grip the dumbbell as hard as you have to with the KB , no matter what position you put the dumbbell in (I know, I've tried).
KB windmills, bent press, 1 legged deads, front squats, overhead squats, etc. are all terrific for building core strength. I also like performing heavy deadlifts, using Pavel's principles of irradiation. The core strength from deads combined with the ballistric and cardio training from KB's has helped me tremendously in my MA training.
But hey, whatever works for you is fine by me. ECYili, Yiliquan1 and myself prefer KB training. Your mileage may vary. I would recommend, however, that everyone pick up a copy of Pavel's book, Power to the People. It is a must read. His stretching series of tapes and books are terrific as well.

 

[ECYili]

Johnathan wrote

Old doesn't in itself mean obsolete. KB is certainly not obsolete.
I simply have a strong dose of skepticsm of people getting all the "woo! Whaaa!" from some "secret, ancient" techniques or tools or whatever. Training is scientific conditioning. It can be explained by science. If you understand the science behind it, then you may be able to improve or adopt or discard it. Basically, you just need to know how and why it works, and not simply take someone's words for it, especially not that of someone who is also selling it. lol



Noone here is saying the kettlebell is some ancient, mystic end-all and be-all of fitness trainning. If your skeptical that's fine, it's always good to question things. But don't let your skeptisism keep from trying new things. I myself was a little skeptical to start KB. I think it probably took me about 5-6 months after Erikki started.
I used to go to the gym 4-5 days a week and do circuit trainning and do this type of trainning and do that type of trainning. I thought that was the only way that I could keep fit and enhance my martial art. Once I started kb trainning I knew that this was better (for me) then all those other things. I'm sure Erikki will tell you the same, he is well more schooled in different types of physical exercise and conditioning.
You say it's not worth the $20 to make your own. Well what's worth more, the $20 to start kb or the $25-$35 a month/years to be a member of a fitness club?
Please do not take my comments as attacks on you. Nor am I angry at those comments. I'm just responding in converstaional fashion. Looking forword to hearing back from you.

Dan

 

[Erkki]

Originally posted by ECYili
If your skeptical that's fine, it's always good to question things. But don't let your skeptisism keep you from trying new things. [/B]

Thanks, Dan. You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[MountainSage]

Wouldn't KB training be a variant of training with a sandbag. Sandbag have been use for many century by MA to increase strength. I would guess that KB are the Russian version.

Mountain Sage

 

[brianhunter]

Where would someone research or buy a kettle ball??? Sounds interesting.

 

[Erkki]

http://www.dragondoor.com for KB products and literature (I recommend Power to the People as a starting point).

http://www.girevikmagazine.com has some cool articles and KB info, although Tyler is admittedly biased.

Also, read this article about the Marines' opinions of Pavel's training methods: http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5594-8.cfm

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Erkki .... whatever works for you is fine by me. ECYili, Yiliquan1 and myself prefer KB training. Your mileage may vary. ,,,,,

Actually there is a lot of truth in that statement. Not everyone's body reacts the same way to every training routines. What works for one person many not work for another. You have to try different routines to see how your body reacts to them. If KB works for you, that is great.