Fire - The elements discussion

[AngryHobbit]

Being a foreigner, for whom English is the second language, a person of pagan faith, and a person with a mental illness diagnosis confirmed by four qualified professionals. I've written on the subjects of language, faith, and mental illness as well as inner demons, struggles, and strange experiences. Given all that, I honestly cannot relate to the necessity of writing something confusing and strange. I understand I might be wrong, but when I read stuff like that it just comes across as a desperate attempt to appear deep and interesting. I have to wonder whether the person who wrote it was just having a "stream of consciousness" kind of day or decided to have fun with the rest of us to see if we'll take his statements seriously.

I have a similar reaction when people go to a museum and start interpreting abstract art. "Here, the artist wanted to emphasize the hopelessness of modern life." "This is the artist's expression of carnal joy and primitive desire." It's a square... with a squiggle in the middle. Do you know for sure it stands for hopelessness or carnal joy or do you pretty much not have a clue, like the rest of us, but are trying to pretend like you do because you are so much deeper?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have a similar reaction when people go to a museum and start interpreting abstract art. "Here, the artist wanted to emphasize the hopelessness of modern life." "This is the artist's expression of carnal joy and primitive desire." It's a square... with a squiggle in the middle. Do you know for sure it stands for hopelessness or carnal joy or do you pretty much not have a clue, like the rest of us, but are trying to pretend like you do because you are so much deeper?

I use to date a woman who was a ballerina who had hurt her back so she decided to became a psychologist. We were at a modern art showing and she started telling me about this "stone carving" that the artist had made and all of its deep meaning. She asked me what I thought...I thought the artist was at a car scrap yard and saw an old worn out tire with a big bulge in the side that looked artsy to him...so he carved it out of stone and drop it here as a joke to see what deep seated meaning people found in his stone tire.....note I said..."use to date"

 

[Tiger86]

Its pretty clear. But Allah says: It is the same wheither you warn the disbelievers or not they wont believe. He has sealed their hearts and for them is a painful punishment. For their lies. Check the Quran if you don't trust me.

I'm talking to deaf people. I love deaf people. Because i'm a spirit.

 

[pgsmith]

But if Allah has sealed their hearts, why would you try and undo his work?

Some folks are simply confused.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Its pretty clear. But Allah says: It is the same wheither you warn the disbelievers or not they wont believe. He has sealed their hearts and for them is a painful punishment. For their lies. Check the Quran if you don't trust me.

I'm talking to deaf people. I love deaf people. Because i'm a spirit.

Well, I am a witch, and although the cornerstone of my faith is "harm none", you are starting to sound like someone attempting to proselytize, which is tempting me to jinx you.

Incidentally, just because people don't follow the Quran doesn't mean they are not familiar with it. In addition to excerpts from the Quran, I have read parts of the Torah, most of Bhagavat Gita, Ramayana, Kalevala, and over a dozen versions of the Bible in three different languages. I disagree with large portions of them and don't follow the parts I disagree with, but I have read them.

I would also like to point out that spirituality and religion are not the same, and accusing of people of being spiritually poor because you think they might or might not have read a particular text of your choosing is not the best strategy.

 

[_Simon_]

But if Allah has sealed their hearts, why would you try and undo his work?

Some folks are simply confused.

Haha great point there XD, snap!

Well, I am a witch, and although the cornerstone of my faith is "harm none", you are starting to sound like someone attempting to proselytize, which is tempting me to jinx you.

Incidentally, just because people don't follow the Quran doesn't mean they are not familiar with it. In addition to excerpts from the Quran, I have read parts of the Torah, most of Bhagavat Gita, Ramayana, Kalevala, and over a dozen versions of the Bible in three different languages. I disagree with large portions of them and don't follow the parts I disagree with, but I have read them.

I would also like to point out that spirituality and religion are not the same, and accusing of people of being spiritually poor because you think they might or might not have read a particular text of your choosing is not the best strategy.

Ah I used to be a pagan too back in the day, blessed be!

And yeah it's bound to happen unfortunately, looking down on others who one judges as 'spiritually inferior'.. just shows a clear misunderstanding as to what spiritual means.

And he has been banned (yet again...) for the record. Will he return...

Ps. Ahh and I love the Gita

 

[Tez3]

I have read parts of the Torah, most of Bhagavat Gita, Ramayana, Kalevala, and over a dozen versions of the Bible in three different languages.

The Torah isn't meant to be read as one reads a book though so many people miss the point of it.
How to Properly Study the Torah

 

[AngryHobbit]

Haha great point there XD, snap!




Ah I used to be a pagan too back in the day, blessed be!

And yeah it's bound to happen unfortunately, looking down on others who one judges as 'spiritually inferior'.. just shows a clear misunderstanding as to what spiritual means.

And he has been banned (yet again...) for the record. Will he return...

Ps. Ahh and I love the Gita

I don't know what I loved more - reading the Gita or just drooling over the gorgeous illustrations. We had one of those BIG illustrated editions - one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. My favorite quote is "Action should culminate in wisdom". I think that should be carved over the entrance of every school and organization everywhere around the world.

 

[AngryHobbit]

The Torah isn't meant to be read as one reads a book though so many people miss the point of it.
How to Properly Study the Torah

I had very limited access to the Torah, so I took what I could get. I dated a Jewish young man for a while, and was honored to be allowed to participate in the Sabbath services several times, including the reading circle. But, since my heritage was mixed, and because I was not of the faith, I was never truly accepted by the Jewish community, so I did not get to participate to a greater extent. I didn't want to just... you know... go buy a copy - anyone could do that. I wanted to be able to read it with some guidance, but didn't get to, at the time, due to lack of acceptance.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't know what I loved more - reading the Gita or just drooling over the gorgeous illustrations. We had one of those BIG illustrated editions - one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. My favorite quote is "Action should culminate in wisdom". I think that should be carved over the entrance of every school and organization everywhere around the world.

I would prefer this one myself, from the Ashtavakra Gita; "As one thinks, So one becomes"

 

[AngryHobbit]

I would prefer this one myself, from the Ashtavakra Gita; "As one thinks, So one becomes"

Oooh, that's a good one too! And hangs very well with another Wiccan cornerstone "thoughts are things".

 

[AngryHobbit]

I would prefer this one myself, from the Ashtavakra Gita; "As one thinks, So one becomes"

In truth, I was far too young to read Bhagavad Gita when I did - my parents had this extensive reading plan for me, so this one year between when I was 12 and 13, they had me work through Gita, Kalevala, Ramayana, and then my favorite grandfather threw in Sun' Ukun, Monkey King for good measure. So, I probably didn't derive nearly as much from them at the time - I was reading them too fast and was too young to really dig them all. One of these days, I should revisit.

 

[Tez3]

I had very limited access to the Torah, so I took what I could get. I dated a Jewish young man for a while, and was honored to be allowed to participate in the Sabbath services several times, including the reading circle. But, since my heritage was mixed, and because I was not of the faith, I was never truly accepted by the Jewish community, so I did not get to participate to a greater extent. I didn't want to just... you know... go buy a copy - anyone could do that. I wanted to be able to read it with some guidance, but didn't get to, at the time, due to lack of acceptance.

A reading circle is an unusual thing for a Jewish community to have. I'm not sure how that would work. There is no such thing as the Jewish community though, there are however many, many Jewish communities each very different. We also tend not to say we are a faith as we have agnostic, atheist and other Jewish people, it's is far more complicated than most realise. If you were to buy a copy of the Torah it should be a Hebrew one and you wouldn't really read it 'with guidance' but join in the general arguments with the rest of us , along side it you would also have to read the Commentaries and the Talmud (The Oral Law) as well as the midrashim. Unlike Xtianity Jewish Law is constantly worked to make it applicable to modern life, it also doesn't mean what people think it is when they say things like 'an eye for an eye'.
Just because one small community didn't accept you doesn't mean all others do.
This is a good website.
The Responsa Project | The Global Jewish Database

 

[AngryHobbit]

A reading circle is an unusual thing for a Jewish community to have. I'm not sure how that would work. There is no such thing as the Jewish community though, there are however many, many Jewish communities each very different. We also tend not to say we are a faith as we have agnostic, atheist and other Jewish people, it's is far more complicated than most realise. If you were to buy a copy of the Torah it should be a Hebrew one and you wouldn't really read it 'with guidance' but join in the general arguments with the rest of us , along side it you would also have to read the Commentaries and the Talmud (The Oral Law) as well as the midrashim. Unlike Xtianity Jewish Law is constantly worked to make it applicable to modern life, it also doesn't mean what people think it is when they say things like 'an eye for an eye'.
Just because one small community didn't accept you doesn't mean all others do.
This is a good website.
The Responsa Project | The Global Jewish Database

This was a very long time ago - over 20 years, and this particular spiritual path is not a priority for me at this time, since I found a different one and have been pursuing it. I am aware there are other communities, I am just not interested in approaching them at this time - just like I am not interested in approaching Christian, Muslim, or Buddhist communities. I was simply trying to explain I came to interact with the Torah.

 

[Tez3]

Fine, I was just explaining you didn't interact with the Torah, you read bits of it. I was correcting a misunderstanding. I won't do it again, obviously. Judaism isn't a 'spiritual path', we aren't spiritual. It's just Judaism.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Fine, I was just explaining you didn't interact with the Torah, you read bits of it. I was correcting a misunderstanding. I won't do it again, obviously. Judaism isn't a 'spiritual path', we aren't spiritual. It's just Judaism.

I have no idea what upsets you so - I said nothing rude or offensive. Also, I don't think you can speak for every single Jew in the world whether he or she is spiritual or not. You might not be. You might not feel Judaism is a path - that is your personal opinion, to which you are entitled. But you cannot speak for millions of people.

Also, I don't think you are in a position to define, what form of contact qualifies as interaction with a text - any text. Reading excerpts is a form of interaction. It involves comprehension, consideration, possible implementation of the content into one's thoughts and actions. Perhaps, that doesn't qualify as interaction in your book - again, that is fine. But I don't think you can speak so categorically about the interactions of others.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In truth, I was far too young to read Bhagavad Gita when I did - my parents had this extensive reading plan for me, so this one year between when I was 12 and 13, they had me work through Gita, Kalevala, Ramayana, and then my favorite grandfather threw in Sun' Ukun, Monkey King for good measure. So, I probably didn't derive nearly as much from them at the time - I was reading them too fast and was too young to really dig them all. One of these days, I should revisit.

Monkey King, do you mean Journey to the West?

 

[AngryHobbit]

Monkey King, do you mean Journey to the West?

It's possible - it was a Russian translation, and that's what it was called - Sun' Ukun, Monkey King. It was probably greatly compressed and simplified (the book had to have passed Soviet literary watchdogs) - I just remember it was a great story and very strange. You know? Very unlike the European epics. In some odd, vague way, it reminded me more of the African lore.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's possible - it was a Russian translation, and that's what it was called - Sun' Ukun, Monkey King. It was probably greatly compressed and simplified (the book had to have passed Soviet literary watchdogs) - I just remember it was a great story and very strange. You know? Very unlike the European epics. In some odd, vague way, it reminded me more of the African lore.

Sun Wukong...it sounds like it may have been an edited story. Journey to the West is rather long with some areas of excitement and others of great tedium

 

[AngryHobbit]

Sun Wukong...it sounds like it may have been an edited story. Journey to the West is rather long with some areas of excitement and others of great tedium

This one had the (super-weird) story of his birth. Although... I am pretty sure... it didn't say anything about a magical stone developing a womb. Anyway... then there was the story of his becoming the monkey king - the one with the waterfall. And then the one abut the dragons... and ... I think... just a hing about his trouble-to-come with Buddha. Still... fascinating stuff.