Finally found it - Version of Siu Nim Tao

[mook jong man]

Some changes just simply remove certain physical limitation. I was told that in WC, you suppose to use your

- right Tan/Bon Shou to block a left punch,
- left Tan/Bon Shou to block a right punch.

If you use right Bon Shou to block a right punch, it's even called "wrong Bon".

In one HK Kung Fu tournament, a CLF guy used a right haymaker on a Yeh Man student. The Yeh Man student used a left Tan Shou to block it. The CLF guy's right haymaker knocked through the WC guy's left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. The WC guy went back and asked Yeh Man, Yeh Man then removed that "left against right, and right against left" limitation after that.

I have also seen some WC guys not only protect center from inside out but also protect center from outside in.

If that story is correct , then he deserved to get hit in the head , it sounds like he just passively threw up a Tan Sau without throwing out his own strike at the same time.
The passive method will see you taking the full brunt of the impact on your Tan Sau , however aggressively moving in with your own simultaneous strike will disrupt the ability of your opponent to generate power and certainly lessen the amount of force that your Tan Sau has to deal with.

Regarding the use of "Inappropriate Bong Sau" , it is actually practiced in the Wooden Dummy Form.
The founders of this art in their infinite wisdom realised that we are only human and prone to error , and sometimes may use the wrong arm , so there are certain techniques used to recover from that somewhat less than optimal position.

Not really getting what you mean when you talk about this - I have also seen some WC guys not only protect center from inside out but also protect center from outside in.


As far as I know we only one centerline and if my hands are on it , that's good enough for me.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Fair question. Simplicity is one core concept in WC, but so is effectiveness. Combine simplicity with effectiveness and you get efficiency. Efficiency can be roughly defined as getting the job done effectively with the least time and effort. I believe the changes my old sifu made, like those made by Yip Man before him, were done to this end. In the name of simplicity, some forms were shortened, movements were streamlined, and duplicated movements were eliminated. In other cases important movements that had be dropped were re-inserted into the forms for completeness and effectiveness.

Whether or not these changes are truly warranted is a legitimate subject for discussion, and people will disagree. Ultimately it's up to you, for example, to practice the 108 movement or 116 movement Mook Yang Jong form. Or go back to some of the old Fo'shan versions that were much longer. And what really matters most is can you actually apply the movements when necessary?

Agreed, and as you said what matters most is what we can actually apply... so in my eyes effectiveness is subjective to what we can apply as well and shouldn't dictate what's effective for someone else. I envision the forms to be much like the alphabet. With this alphabet, you can put words and sentences together and try your hand at conversation. But take some letters away, and you're limited with the words you can spell, and thus dialog is broken at best. Just some personal thoughts on the subject.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Not really getting what you mean when you talk about this - I have also seen some WC guys not only protect center from inside out but also protect center from outside in.


As far as I know we only one centerline and if my hands are on it , that's good enough for me.

He is talking about Wing Chun's adaptability when it comes to where your hands are located when the **** hits the fan. Think about it. When wing chun guys always say "my hands are always on my centerline" (or similar)...that IMO is ridiculous. Yes, it is desirable, but not 100% all the time can you achieve it. Good wing chun (and I say that carefully ) will contain both aspects: "inside to outside, and outside to inside". This "little idea" is seeded in the first form.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I envision the forms to be much like the alphabet. With this alphabet, you can put words and sentences together and try your hand at conversation. But take some letters away, and you're limited with the words you can spell, and thus dialog is broken at best

Well said.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not really getting what you mean when you talk about this - I have also seen some WC guys not only protect center from inside out but also protect center from outside in.


As far as I know we only one centerline and if my hands are on it , that's good enough for me.

What if your hands are not on it for any reason? To set a such limitation on yourself will restrict yourself from moving your hands out of your centerline.

 

[mook jong man]

What if your hands are not on it for any reason? To set a such limitation on yourself will restrict yourself from moving your hands out of your centerline.

If I am on guard , and I am facing my opponent then my hands will be on the centerline.
If somebody tries to take my hands off the centerline , then there are ways and means such as "running palms " to get your hands back on the centerline.

I was not talking about if you are walking around just minding your own business and you are suddenly attacked from the side or from an angle that you should waste time trying to square up and get your hands on centre.

You would respond with your closest weapon to the target , then square up and get your hands on center.
The Wing Chun forms teach many things , but they don't teach you to be bloody stupid that's for sure.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is what I'm talking about:

- Your hands are not in your center line and you are not on guard.
- Suddenly your opponent attacks you.

You will have 2 options here:

1. Move your hands on guard, and use your Tan Shou to block your opponent's punch from "inside out" (this may be too slow).
2. Use your Fu Shou to block your opponent's punch from "outside in" (this is much faster).

 

[mook jong man]

This is what I'm talking about:

- Your hands are not in your center line and you are not on guard.
- Suddenly your opponent attacks you.

You will have 2 options here:

1. Move your hands on guard, and use your Tan Shou to block your opponent's punch from "inside out" (this may be too slow).
2. Use your Fu Shou to block your opponent's punch from "outside in" (this is much faster).

Is this hypothetical opponent directly in front of us , or is he coming in from the side ?

You are aware that you can use your Tan Sau on the outside of his arm and still strike through aren't you?
Tan Sau is not limited to being used only on the inside of the opponents arm.

 

[Danny T]

This is what I'm talking about:

- Your hands are not in your center line and you are not on guard.
- Suddenly your opponent attacks you.

You will have 2 options here:

1. Move your hands on guard, and use your Tan Shou to block your opponent's punch from "inside out" (this may be too slow).
2. Use your Fu Shou to block your opponent's punch from "outside in" (this is much faster).

That is what the 3rd empty hand form is about. Having lost center or being off center when the attack occurs.
All actions can happen on the inside or outside simply depends upon where the bridge happens. It is important to seek the bridge and go from that moment in time. Seek the bridge, read what is happening and respond making no judgement only responding with what is given.

 

[geezer]

This is what I'm talking about:

- Your hands are not in your center line and you are not on guard.
- Suddenly your opponent attacks you.

You will have 2 options here:

1. Move your hands on guard, and use your Tan Shou to block your opponent's punch from "inside out" (this may be too slow).
2. Use your Fu Shou to block your opponent's punch from "outside in" (this is much faster).

Or ...just punch him.

Attacking hand is defending hand. If you have good elbow position, your punch can hit him and can often deflect and control his attacking arm at the same time.

 

[Danny T]

Or ...just punch him.

Yeap... Where there is nothing - Strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is this hypothetical opponent directly in front of us , or is he coming in from the side ?

- You are in the south and facing north.
- Someone is in your north and facing south.
- He asks you for direction.
- You use your both arms (don't know why) and point to the east direction for him.
- He suddenly punches at your chest with a south force vector.

In this example, it doesn't matter which Shou that you may use, you have to bring at least one of your arms back to block his punch from "outside in" (since none of your hands are in your center line).

What I'm trying to say is the on guard is not always available. That's why I believe to be able to "protect your center from outside in" is also important.

 

[Punchy]

- You are in the south and facing north.
- Someone is in your north and facing south.
- He asks you for direction.
- You use your both arms (don't know why) and point to the east direction for him.
- He suddenly punches at your chest with a south force vector.

In this example, it doesn't matter which Shou that you may use, you have to bring at least one of your arms back to block his punch from "outside in" (since none of your hands are in your center line).

What I'm trying to say is the on guard is not always available. That's why I believe to be able to "protect your center from outside in" is also important.

A good wing chun man would have kept his hands on his centerline and motioned with his head.....

 

[mook jong man]

- You are in the south and facing north.
- Someone is in your north and facing south.
- He asks you for direction.
- You use your both arms (don't know why) and point to the east direction for him.
- He suddenly punches at your chest with a south force vector.

In this example, it doesn't matter which Shou that you may use, you have to bring at least one of your arms back to block his punch from "outside in" (since none of your hands are in your center line).

What I'm trying to say is the on guard is not always available. That's why I believe to be able to "protect your center from outside in" is also important.

Oh ok , now I get ya.
In that case , the first one that comes to mind is a move from Chum Kiu , where the arm is out to the side after the Fak Sau and then sweeps back in to intercept the attack and recover the centerline.

You could also use the similar moves from Biu Sze that come back into center directly from the side , which are probably even more appropriate for the situation.

Depending on how far away he is , if I have the time I may low heel kick his knee as he steps in so he can't even get into punching range.

If both your hands are out to the side , a very strange position but anyway , and assuming the punch is coming directly at you , at a very basic level you could just swing both your hands back into the guard position and intercept that way and go from there.

Quite a few things you could do , if you wanted to get fancy , pivoting back in with a Bong Sau , a simple Pak Sau
But a flinch response would probably be to just to swing your hands back into center and let the guard deal with it

Just for the record I would not be using two hands to indicate directions to a complete stranger , one hand maybe.
I would be just out of range and the other hand would be sneakily up near my face pretending to scratch my nose or my chin as I am talking to the stranger.

In other words one hand would be on my centerline up near my face and ready to go .

 

[JPinAZ]

Wing chun isn't about 'moves' IMO. What John (kung fu wang) is talking about is covered by the first half of the kuit: No shape, target shadow. Typically accomplished with a faat sau if a name must be given to the action.

And, to anyone that argues about not using 2 hands to point with, scratching their nose, etc - I REALLY hope you were joking - it was just a hypothetical! He could just as easily said "there's a guy that walks up on your left/blind side". You can't honestly tell me that you would be so on guard every second of your life?

 

[mook jong man]

Wing chun isn't about 'moves' IMO. What John (kung fu wang) is talking about is covered by the first half of the kuit: No shape, target shadow. Typically accomplished with a faat sau if a name must be given to the action.

And, to anyone that argues about not using 2 hands to point with, scratching their nose, etc - I REALLY hope you were joking - it was just a hypothetical! He could just as easily said "there's a guy that walks up on your left/blind side". You can't honestly tell me that you would be so on guard every second of your life?

I am absolutely serious.
If a stranger approaches me out in public , my hands will automatically come up in a type of non threatening guard.
It comes from a time when I was a young branch instructor and people would wander in off the street , you never knew who you were dealing with.


Sometimes they were drunk , drug affected and therefore unpredictable.
Why leave yourself open to a cheap shot when you don't have too.

In this age of wankers running around with mobile phones filming themselves knocking people out , I'd rather be thought of as a bit paranoid and still have my teeth in my head , than be a funniest home video on some halfwits camera phone.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a stranger approaches me out in public , my hands will automatically come up in a type of non threatening guard.

In the following Miao Dao short clip, her Miao Diao is behind her body. When her opponent attacks her, she then pulls her Miao Diao forward, upward, deflects her opponent's weapon, and then counter attacks. To protect your center from "outside in" by

- open your center,
- invite your opponent to attack,
- you then deflect your opponent's attack, and
- counter attack,

is a very common TCMA strategy. The Miao Dao is just an extension of the arm. Same strategy can be applied in open hand as well.