Fighting and Self Defence are two different things.

[ballen0351]

You style hinges on one technique?

Nope

 

[drop bear]

No,

Yes you were very clear about this. You are making this point I made earlier.

"There are no absolutes with self defence. If I get attacked by an elephant my method will not work and I will get trunk slapped.

There are methods that will lean towards greater success than others. These methods can be tested in an environment that has saftey features.

The reason for this is because to have a propper idea of what works we have to repeat these tests and come up with a trend. This is how Resisted training works. We call these ideas percentages.

So although this method is flawed it is the least flawed. And the best method to teach skills."

 

[drop bear]

Nope

Then you should really be able to make do with some approximation shouldn't you?

 

[ballen0351]

But if you want to talk % nothing works 100% of the time so you do a technique and hope it works

 

[ballen0351]

Then you should really be able to make do with some approximation shouldn't you?

Why? Its not my style anymore.at that point its a watered down version

 

[ballen0351]

Yes you were very clear about this. You are making this point I made earlier.

"There are no absolutes with self defence. If I get attacked by an elephant my method will not work and I will get trunk slapped.

There are methods that will lean towards greater success than others. These methods can be tested in an environment that has saftey features.

The reason for this is because to have a propper idea of what works we have to repeat these tests and come up with a trend. This is how Resisted training works. We call these ideas percentages.

So although this method is flawed it is the least flawed. And the best method to teach skills."

And at the end of the day no amount of training will guarantee success so your just hoping it works

 

[drop bear]

Why? Its not my style anymore.at that point its a watered down version

Train hard fight easy. If you can win with the watered down version. Imagine what you can do at full strength.

 

[ballen0351]

Train hard fight easy. If you can win with the watered down version. Imagine what you can do at full strength.

You can train hard without entering competitions

 

[Hanzou]

So did pure strikers doesnt mean a whole hill of beans

Pure strikers never did well until they learned how to escape the takedown and neutralize grappling. It wasn't the rules that held them back, it was the nature of grappling that gave it an advantage. What was that nature? The fact that grapplers can train at a harder pace than strikers with less fear of injury.

Except complete classical styles don't fit with in the rules. If I have to leave out 40% of my style to make it fit the rules well its no longer that style anymore.so why bother?

What MMA rules would force you to leave out 40% of your style? Feel free to use the rule set from outfits like Rio Heroes where the only rules are no biting or eye gouging.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, which is why I said that competition is the closest you're going to get to actually testing the effectiveness of your style outside of engaging in constant street fights that put your life in danger.

It should be noted that there are different levels of competition as well; Competitions with a heavy rule set like point fighting, Bjj or Judo competitions, all the way up to NHB tournaments where two or more guys are slugging it out with no gloves and 1or 2 rules.

It should be noted that regardless of rule set, the same set of styles tend to dominate that format.

I agree that there is some validity to this. However, the primary issue I have with competition is that it's among people who TRAIN for competition. I'm not talking about the skill set, but about the amount of training. The people I'd face in competition will often be folks who train A LOT for those events, because they want to beat the guy who trains one hour less than them. That's unrelated/uncorrellated to the common attacks on the street.
Someone mentioned in another thread (currently locked) that everyone has access to martial arts info (Youtube, etc.), but access is not the same as training. The common attack will come from one of two sources: someone who is out of control (drunk and/or angry beyond the point of emotional hijacking) or someone who is there to take you down on a calculated attack with no warning (probably someone who wants something you have, and doesn't like the odds of a fight).

So, if you put me - a fit 45-year-old with bad knees and a gimpy toe - into the ring/octagon with someone who's in prime physical condition, I will probably lose if he has any reasonable training. Part of this is simply that he can take more punishment than I, and has options I don't (pushing hard off the balls of the feet from the ground, deep squatting, etc. are simply impossible for me), and that some of the things I'd do facing that attacker in the street simply aren't going to come out of me in a competition. I won't take knees out to test my skills (some will in competition, I won't), and I obviously won't punch to the throat or poke eyes.

Now, give me someone in similar physical condition, and then we're in business. But then, he's not competing, either. Yes, competition is useful. Maybe even the best test we have available. But competition becomes a young man's (relatively speaking) game in the end. And those competitions fall back on techniques that work against similarly well-conditioned people AND which provide the fewest openings for that same training.

I miss competing, and still spar some to get what I can of it. And I practice with resisting partners. I do what I can to test my techniques and skills, but I won't be entering any MMA competitions. I'm past that ability in my life.

 

[ballen0351]

Pure strikers never did well until they learned how to escape the takedown and neutralize grappling. It wasn't the rules that held them back, it was the nature of grappling that gave it an advantage. What was that nature? The fact that grapplers can train at a harder pace than strikers with less fear of injury.

lol ok strikers never won anything. If that makes you feel,better about you precious grappling go for it.

What MMA rules would force you to leave out 40% of your style? Feel free to use the rule set from outfits like Rio Heroes where the only rules are no biting or eye gouging.

nothing man your right anything other then BJJ or MMA is useless since it never won a pretty medal or wwe style belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gotta hate when they don't attack you right.

I just hate when they fail to give an attack. The only time I need them to attack "right" is when I need to practice a specific response. Can't practice dealing with a tackle if the guy insists on boxing, and can't practice dealing with an attack if my attacker turns into a mannequin.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree that there is some validity to this. However, the primary issue I have with competition is that it's among people who TRAIN for competition. I'm not talking about the skill set, but about the amount of training. The people I'd face in competition will often be folks who train A LOT for those events, because they want to beat the guy who trains one hour less than them. That's unrelated/uncorrellated to the common attacks on the street.
Someone mentioned in another thread (currently locked) that everyone has access to martial arts info (Youtube, etc.), but access is not the same as training. The common attack will come from one of two sources: someone who is out of control (drunk and/or angry beyond the point of emotional hijacking) or someone who is there to take you down on a calculated attack with no warning (probably someone who wants something you have, and doesn't like the odds of a fight).

But who's to say that either assailant in those situations wasn't the former state wrestling champ, or Jr. Golden Gloves champ? My point in that earlier post is that you simply can't assume that you're the only one trained. You can go on the internet now and see countless videos of teenagers beating the piss out of each other. Frankly a LOT of those kids have solid basic skills, and many of those skills are coming directly out of MMA, Boxing, and Wrestling.

What does competition do for you? It hones your skill set against resisting opponents, teaches you how to handle an adrenaline dump, and it increases your endurance and durability. All of those are pretty beneficial qualities.

So, if you put me - a fit 45-year-old with bad knees and a gimpy toe - into the ring/octagon with someone who's in prime physical condition, I will probably lose if he has any reasonable training. Part of this is simply that he can take more punishment than I, and has options I don't (pushing hard off the balls of the feet from the ground, deep squatting, etc. are simply impossible for me), and that some of the things I'd do facing that attacker in the street simply aren't going to come out of me in a competition. I won't take knees out to test my skills (some will in competition, I won't), and I obviously won't punch to the throat or poke eyes.

Now, give me someone in similar physical condition, and then we're in business. But then, he's not competing, either.

I would say that a 40 something with bad knees and a gimpy toe probably isn't running around ambushing people either.

Yes, competition is useful. Maybe even the best test we have available. But competition becomes a young man's (relatively speaking) game in the end. And those competitions fall back on techniques that work against similarly well-conditioned people AND which provide the fewest openings for that same training.

Eh, I think an uppercut to the face is actually more effective on a un-conditioned person.

I miss competing, and still spar some to get what I can of it. And I practice with resisting partners. I do what I can to test my techniques and skills, but I won't be entering any MMA competitions. I'm past that ability in my life.

You don't need to enter a competition, but if you have the opportunity to train with younger guys you should definitely take that opportunity. I actively train with twenty-somethings who actively compete in both MMA and Bjj, and its a totally different ball game because of their raw energy and strength. Sometimes my training and experience simply isn't enough to overcome their raw abilities. That's a reality that every aging martial artist needs to realize.

In the end we're dealing with a generation now that has access to martial arts on an unprecedented level. I agree that access isn't training, but access is still access and I know for a fact that if the entire Bjj and MMA curriculum was available to me for free on Youtube back then like it is now, my buddies and I would be in the backyard practicing those techniques for hours.

 

[Hanzou]

lol ok strikers never won anything. If that makes you feel,better about you precious grappling go for it.

Nice straw-man. That isn't what I said.

nothing man your right anything other then BJJ or MMA is useless since it never won a pretty medal or www style belt.

So in other words you were blowing smoke out your butt with the "MMA rules removes 40% of my classic MA style" comment?

 

[ballen0351]

Nice straw-man. That isn't what I said.



So in other words you were blowing smoke out your butt with the "MMA rules removes 40% of my classic MA style" comment?

No, I just don't have the desire to go over this same tired argument with you again. Its been done at least a dozen times and has nothing to do with this thread. You have your opinion and I disagree.

 

[Hanzou]

No, I just don't have the desire to go over this same tired argument with you again. Its been done at least a dozen times and has nothing to do with this thread. You have your opinion and I disagree.

I never stated my opinion. I asked you to verify your statement that 40% of any hand to hand MA is nullified by MMA rules.

 

[Steve]

I agree that there is some validity to this. However, the primary issue I have with competition is that it's among people who TRAIN for competition. I'm not talking about the skill set, but about the amount of training. The people I'd face in competition will often be folks who train A LOT for those events, because they want to beat the guy who trains one hour less than them. That's unrelated/uncorrellated to the common attacks on the street.
Someone mentioned in another thread (currently locked) that everyone has access to martial arts info (Youtube, etc.), but access is not the same as training. The common attack will come from one of two sources: someone who is out of control (drunk and/or angry beyond the point of emotional hijacking) or someone who is there to take you down on a calculated attack with no warning (probably someone who wants something you have, and doesn't like the odds of a fight).

So, if you put me - a fit 45-year-old with bad knees and a gimpy toe - into the ring/octagon with someone who's in prime physical condition, I will probably lose if he has any reasonable training. Part of this is simply that he can take more punishment than I, and has options I don't (pushing hard off the balls of the feet from the ground, deep squatting, etc. are simply impossible for me), and that some of the things I'd do facing that attacker in the street simply aren't going to come out of me in a competition. I won't take knees out to test my skills (some will in competition, I won't), and I obviously won't punch to the throat or poke eyes.

Now, give me someone in similar physical condition, and then we're in business. But then, he's not competing, either. Yes, competition is useful. Maybe even the best test we have available. But competition becomes a young man's (relatively speaking) game in the end. And those competitions fall back on techniques that work against similarly well-conditioned people AND which provide the fewest openings for that same training.

I miss competing, and still spar some to get what I can of it. And I practice with resisting partners. I do what I can to test my techniques and skills, but I won't be entering any MMA competitions. I'm past that ability in my life.

One point to consider is that you don't have to compete to realize some benefit from competition. Not everyone who trains in MMA or bjj competes, but the training model and standards are calibrated when you train with others who do compete.

The other thing to consider is that, sure, training for a specific rule set can be limiting and create blind spots. However, once the blind spot is exposed, it can be easily addressed. Blinds spots are exposed in several ways. For example, using a rubber knife while sparring in a bjj class is exposing a blind spot. Competing under a different rule set exposes blind spots. online discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But who's to say that either assailant in those situations wasn't the former state wrestling champ, or Jr. Golden Gloves champ? My point in that earlier post is that you simply can't assume that you're the only one trained. You can go on the internet now and see countless videos of teenagers beating the piss out of each other. Frankly a LOT of those kids have solid basic skills, and many of those skills are coming directly out of MMA, Boxing, and Wrestling.

What does competition do for you? It hones your skill set against resisting opponents, teaches you how to handle an adrenaline dump, and it increases your endurance and durability. All of those are pretty beneficial qualities.



I would say that a 40 something with bad knees and a gimpy toe probably isn't running around ambushing people either.



Eh, I think an uppercut to the face is actually more effective on a un-conditioned person.



You don't need to enter a competition, but if you have the opportunity to train with younger guys you should definitely take that opportunity. I actively train with twenty-somethings who actively compete in both MMA and Bjj, and its a totally different ball game because of their raw energy and strength. Sometimes my training and experience simply isn't enough to overcome their raw abilities. That's a reality that every aging martial artist needs to realize.

In the end we're dealing with a generation now that has access to martial arts on an unprecedented level. I agree that access isn't training, but access is still access and I know for a fact that if the entire Bjj and MMA curriculum was available to me for free on Youtube back then like it is now, my buddies and I would be in the backyard practicing those techniques for hours.

I don't think I was clear enough on this. I believe competition is valuable. I just don't believe training ONLY for competition is as valuable as combining competition with training for SD. I often have people challenge me with, "Try that in an MMA gym!" That's not an attack, it's someone who knows I know something, and who is trained to avoid it. Will the stuff I train in still work? Yes. I've practiced with folks who do both. However, some of what I train for potential street use is NOT useful there, just as SOME of the mental approach used in competition training is not useful on the street.

This is not - and never should be - a question of competition vs. SD training. SD training includes technique, mindset, awareness, avoidance, etc. Competitive practice (and training for it) can fall squarely in at least that first group, and likely contributes to parts of the others.

I never said things like uppercuts don't work on untrained folks, so please don't apply that meaning to my post. I only take exception with those who claim that training for competition is the best (and only, per some) way to prepare for self-defense.

You made some other non sequitur comments (attacks by someone like me, training with younger people) that have no bearing on the discussion, so I'll not reply unless you can make a valid point with them, or point out where they proceed from my comments.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, I forgot to reply to one of your points - which is well made. Yes, the guy I defend against might be well-trained. I cannot, however, train a new student for that person. They will lose every time until they are well-skilled, and most will quit before then. So, I start by increasing their odds. I give them tools that are useful, then add to them as we get their skill up. After they've trained enough, they have at least even odds with that wrestling champ. I am ready for him (I've actually had wrestlers come to me to improve their skill on the mat), but no actual beginner (in any art, style, system, or gym) is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One point to consider is that you don't have to compete to realize some benefit from competition. Not everyone who trains in MMA or bjj competes, but the training model and standards are calibrated when you train with others who do compete.

The other thing to consider is that, sure, training for a specific rule set can be limiting and create blind spots. However, once the blind spot is exposed, it can be easily addressed. Blinds spots are exposed in several ways. For example, using a rubber knife while sparring in a bjj class is exposing a blind spot. Competing under a different rule set exposes blind spots. online discussion.

I do train with folks outside my own style from time to time.
For me, some of my most profound increases in skill came after I trained in something outside my primary art - where I understood someplace I had left a weakness or hadn't understood something in my techniques properly. I consistently update training methods for myself and my students, precisely to illuminate those blind spots and help remove them.

I won't join an MMA gym or a BJJ class long-term both because my lower body won't take the heavy ground work, and because I don't want to train for their competition, and training with those who compete usually does that (at least my experience in Judo and some work with MMA fighters). I'd rather get together with them for some friendly sparring and to share ideas and training methods.

That said, of course, there's nothing wrong with their training. Does it have gaps for SD? Of course - all training must, unless you are going to dedicate your life to SD training. I'd rather be trained in BJJ or at some MMA gym than not be trained.

I've chosen a style and training methods that have some reasonable evidence (again: cops, bouncers, and a few students/instructors who actually had to defend themselves). Now it's up to me to make it as useful and usable for myself (and my students) as possible.