Fighting and Self Defence are two different things.
- Thread starter Paul_D
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I had a discussion about this recently. Physical training for SD is helpful (most of us likely agree), but is not everything. And there are advantages and disadvantages to training for competition. If someone is willing to put in the hard time (and inevitable injuries) for hard competition (things like boxing and MMA), they will be tougher and will have some useful tools. However, most of the value in that, IMO, is the toughness, and that can't be had in the amount of time most people are willing to train.
Now, let's move beyond the physical training. Awareness, recognizing anger and danger cues, and other principles are at least as important to SD. I actually had someone say to me recently (in response to me saying I avoid places where fights are likely), "I go where I want to go, and do what I want to do." This, to me, is quite the opposite of self-defense. This same person claimed that fully 99% (his actual number, which he refused to back down on) of attacks on the street come with "absolutely no warning - they are ambushes". In other words, this person - who pays no attention to whether fights are likely - is also completely ignorant of the cues.
So, for schools and programs that teach "self-defense", we should be teaching all parts of it. Yes, the physical matters. (And I do believe a wide range of tools is useful, because not every attack will lend itself to those few strikes.) But we must go beyond that physical aspect if we claim to teach self-defense. Otherwise, change the marketing.
Now, let's move beyond the physical training. Awareness, recognizing anger and danger cues, and other principles are at least as important to SD. I actually had someone say to me recently (in response to me saying I avoid places where fights are likely), "I go where I want to go, and do what I want to do." This, to me, is quite the opposite of self-defense. This same person claimed that fully 99% (his actual number, which he refused to back down on) of attacks on the street come with "absolutely no warning - they are ambushes". In other words, this person - who pays no attention to whether fights are likely - is also completely ignorant of the cues.
So, for schools and programs that teach "self-defense", we should be teaching all parts of it. Yes, the physical matters. (And I do believe a wide range of tools is useful, because not every attack will lend itself to those few strikes.) But we must go beyond that physical aspect if we claim to teach self-defense. Otherwise, change the marketing.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
BJJ Mafia showing up I see. Just a little fun.
If someone hasn't practiced some tools, whether they freeze or not may be irrelevant. Add to that the fact that someone who has trained reactions to reasonably realistic attacks will have at least some habitual action to fall back on, and they get an edge. I can't quantify the edge, but it is there, and I'll take what I can get.
Mind you, this applies in other ways, as well. Someone with no training at being punched (at) may not recognize a punch as quickly. This doesn't, by the way, give any clear advantage to either MMA/boxing competitors nor to SD school students. The former probably actually see more punches (and many disguised), but they come from an undisguised fighting stance. The SD folks probably see fewer punches, but (if they are training this way) will see some that were disguised from many non-threatening stances and postures. Each has its advantages.
By the way, there is some evidence (not conclusive, that I've seen) that visualization can help prevent freezing. We can't simulate the full violence of a real attack - it's just not safe. But in our minds, we can create horrific attacks, and have ourselves respond. Curiously, sports studies have shown fairly conclusively that the subconscious mind reacts to (and learns from) these imagined experiences almost exactly like they were real. This offers the real probability that using visualization can make us less "inexperienced" in reacting to violent attacks.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
There was and because you are making a point that has nothing to do with the topic.Nowhere did I say you shouldnt practice and test things
Steve
Mostly Harmless
By the way, let's be clear what realistic resistance is, too. I have a student who spent a lot of time sparring. I'm having to train away some of his "resistance" in order to get realistic attacks out of him. When he gives a bear hug grab, for instance (which should be to tackle or to grab and slam), he gives it with his legs together to protect his groin. This negates the attack, and is both useless and unrealistic. Similarly, when he grabs someone, he goes stiff, to offer "resistance", but the stiffness is completely static. He's not really attacking, he's grabbing and going into rigor mortis. Real resistance should have an attacker's intent. Attackers don't grab to hold your wrist. They grab to pull you by it, keep it clear while they punch you, or to hold you in place by it. They don't really give a damn about the wrist, so a stiffened arm grabbing a wrist isn't a realistic attack - it's just someone resisting the specific technique they know is coming.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Yes you are Im aware
Five pages of barking in nine hours. And in those nine hours how many here have had to defend themselves? How many here have had to defend themselves in nine months? Hell, how many here have had to defend themselves in the last nine years? And nine years is a long, long time. And do spare us the war stories, please.
As to the OP, honorable intentions aside, discussion agenda might hint at the obvious. All encounters of self defense are different, as are all crimes, as are all monkey dances. Similar, yes, at times, but different nonetheless. As are all competitive matches, as are all sparring sessions, as are are all drunken incidents with relatives or friends, as are all road rage crap, all dirty looks, as are all misunderstandings that go a little to far.
As are all incidents related to occupation. Police work, bouncer, security, soldier, bodyguard, contractor etc. As dangerous and difficult as they may be there is a professional, social and legal difference to what is happening compared to whatever we define as self defense depending on our mood.
Fighting and self defense are two different things. You know, maybe they are, but, I like my chances. I really do. I'll bet you like yours, too. And I'll bet you're right.
You know why? Because we all train.
As to the OP, honorable intentions aside, discussion agenda might hint at the obvious. All encounters of self defense are different, as are all crimes, as are all monkey dances. Similar, yes, at times, but different nonetheless. As are all competitive matches, as are all sparring sessions, as are are all drunken incidents with relatives or friends, as are all road rage crap, all dirty looks, as are all misunderstandings that go a little to far.
As are all incidents related to occupation. Police work, bouncer, security, soldier, bodyguard, contractor etc. As dangerous and difficult as they may be there is a professional, social and legal difference to what is happening compared to whatever we define as self defense depending on our mood.
Fighting and self defense are two different things. You know, maybe they are, but, I like my chances. I really do. I'll bet you like yours, too. And I'll bet you're right.
You know why? Because we all train.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Well thats kinda the point of a forum but I wouldnt consider this thread barking. Other than 1 troll showing up with his "Joke" its been going along fine
Umm I had to yell an a guy who couldnt understand why I wouldnt allow him to drive between two firetrucks and 1 ambo because he lives that way. Sorry this bad accident with a pregnant woman is putting a damper on your day. Does that count?
Yes to both
Yeah thats been stated a few times now
True as well
Sure
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Yeah, which is why I said that competition is the closest you're going to get to actually testing the effectiveness of your style outside of engaging in constant street fights that put your life in danger.
It should be noted that there are different levels of competition as well; Competitions with a heavy rule set like point fighting, Bjj or Judo competitions, all the way up to NHB tournaments where two or more guys are slugging it out with no gloves and 1or 2 rules.
It should be noted that regardless of rule set, the same set of styles tend to dominate that format.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah the ones the rules were designed for
Hanzou
Grandmaster
And how exactly would the rules inhibit certain styles but not others?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok take a boxer and BJJ. Put them in a ring with boxing rules and the boxer wins 9 out of 10, Same two in a BJJ tournament boxer looses. Judo vs MMA Use Judo rules Judo wins, Use MMA rules MMA wins.
Pretty simple concept really
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Obviously boxing rules would favor boxing and Bjj rules would favor Bjj, but MMA rules don't favor any particular style, hence why its called MMA, because its a mix of various martial arts. There isn't a particular "MMA style". There are certain styles that (almost) every fighter trains in. Nothing should prohibit a Praying Mantis practitioner from becoming a MMA fighter.
That's what all that training is for.
Nothing is proven ever, unless it is a mathematical proof or a legal proof.
But once you test that car in that fashion you can never drive it again, you have to drive a new car that is the same make and model and just hope that it does not have some flaw that the one you tested doesn't have.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I would say that after the first UFC, grappling was proven to be a pretty important range of fighting that shouldn't be neglected.
Funny, I didn't see any elephants in that video. Maybe you are seeing pink ones?
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