Interesting. In all the forum discussions on WSLVT you've been in, you have not once made any statement that suggests you have half a clue what it's about.
Also interesting, you don't believe what practitioners of a system you've never trained in have to say about it... Guy and I have never met, but we are on the same page and understand each other perfectly. You don't, because you've never experienced a similar system and look at it through the lens of other lineages that are entirely different.
I just made a post on the "Deficiencies in WSL teachings" thread describing how we use pun-sau abstractly for developing correct punching force and various facets of the VT punch. It's not something that can be learned and developed properly by just punching.
You think chi-sau and everything else in the system is "inefficient" for us because we don't think of it as technique practice, looking at how the arms "control the opponent" and whatnot, and you think our punch is just a punch. In fighting it becomes that simple. But it doesn't get that way by just punching.
By the way, KPM, there's no shame in being clueless on a system you have no direct experience with. Just don't talk about its method being inefficient when you know neither the method nor its goal.
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Are you saying you are training to face the lowest common denominator in a fight and counting on your opponent being a scrub? Sounds like that fantasy world we talked about again!
VT training is aimed at hitting and ending the fight quickly, as simply and effectively as possible. The aim of any striking system is always to end the fight without being hit. That aims are not always achieved is not a criticism of those aims. After all, if we train to avoid being hit then over time we get better at avoiding being hit. If we train to accept being punched in the face then this is what tends to happen when we fight.
You only believe this to be the case because you don't understand the VT system. All of the VT training builds the ability to move and punch to end the fight rapidly and safely. This includes forms, dummy, chi sau, pole. That you don't understand this at all is a bit mind boggling. You obviously train a very different system.
Remember that what you see of boxing is the cream of the elite performers. These are people who have systematised the generic info taught to amateur boxers in terms of ring success under a specific rule set, and then been taught by elite trainers with their own system organisation and knowledge. You do not see the many people who simply train and never make it anywhere beyond gym sparring or low lever amateur fights.
For ring fighting under boxing rules, boxing is the best thing to train. For ring fighting under MT rules, MT is the best thing to train. For ring fighting under knockdown karate rules, knockdown karate is the best thing to train, for ring fighting under MMA rules, MMA is the best thing to train etc, etc.
VT is not ring fighting. It has a particular systematised approach aimed at ending street confrontation very rapidly. Having trained VT against reasonable boxers, having boxed at University, and also having trained MT I would say that VT brings something that is not present in boxing or MT. It is a very fast and safe way to punch in a high very stress situation where gross motor skill and thinking is compromised, and its design makes it particularly safe for the user in situations where there is no preparation and where time is critical. Safety and apparent speed (to the opponent) are the primary advantages of VT.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
There are so many mitigating circumstances to that idea.
Also interesting, you don't believe what practitioners of a system you've never trained in have to say about it... Guy and I have never met, but we are on the same page and understand each other perfectly. You don't, because you've never experienced a similar system and look at it through the lens of other lineages that are entirely different.
---That's funny, since you denigrate everyone else's Wing Chun. Have you trained in all systems of Wing Chun?
You think chi-sau and everything else in the system is "inefficient" for us because we don't think of it as technique practice, looking at how the arms "control the opponent" and whatnot, and you think our punch is just a punch. In fighting it becomes that simple. But it doesn't get that way by just punching.
---Boxers fight pretty well and punch pretty well without all that WSLVT training. The fight is pretty simple for them as well. So again, it is you and Guy describing your system as being all about punching....90% punching if I recall. If that is true....then yes, that seems very inefficient when boxing training can accomplish the same goal. I don't have to have been through your entire training curriculum to reach that conclusion. And I'm guessing that there are plenty of other people in the WSLVT lineage that wouldn't describe things quite the way you two have.
---That's funny, since you denigrate everyone else's Wing Chun. Have you trained in all systems of Wing Chun?
You think chi-sau and everything else in the system is "inefficient" for us because we don't think of it as technique practice, looking at how the arms "control the opponent" and whatnot, and you think our punch is just a punch. In fighting it becomes that simple. But it doesn't get that way by just punching.
---Boxers fight pretty well and punch pretty well without all that WSLVT training. The fight is pretty simple for them as well. So again, it is you and Guy describing your system as being all about punching....90% punching if I recall. If that is true....then yes, that seems very inefficient when boxing training can accomplish the same goal. I don't have to have been through your entire training curriculum to reach that conclusion. And I'm guessing that there are plenty of other people in the WSLVT lineage that wouldn't describe things quite the way you two have.
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VT training is aimed at hitting and ending the fight quickly, as simply and effectively as possible.
---Well, then I'll state the obvious one more time. Boxing training is a much efficient method to achieve that goal than the entire curriculum of WSLVT. You sure have a lot of "abstract" training for something that should be so simple.
The aim of any striking system is always to end the fight without being hit. That aims are not always achieved is not a criticism of those aims. After all, if we train to avoid being hit then over time we get better at avoiding being hit. If we train to accept being punched in the face then this is what tends to happen when we fight.
---Well sure. And a boxer trains plenty of footwork and upper body movement to avoid being hit as much as possible. In a perfect match he would go into the ring and dominate the opponent without the other guy ever landing a punch. But they don't count on that happening.
You only believe this to be the case because you don't understand the VT system.
---Oh, I understand the WING CHUN system fine. I just don't buy into the line you and LFJ are putting out. LFJ just told me I don't understand what you guys are saying because I have never trained your system. But at the same time you guys are saying that your system is THE Wing Chun system. You don't see a disconnect and contradiction there? You don't see that what you are describing differs from everyone else's Wing Chun? Even other WSL lineage people? And you believe that everyone else is wrong and misunderstands Wing Chun, rather than seeing your PBWSLVT approach as a specific development along a specific tactical approach? That's what I find "mind boggling"!
All of the VT training builds the ability to move and punch to end the fight rapidly and safely. This includes forms, dummy, chi sau, pole. That you don't understand this at all is a bit mind boggling. You obviously train a very different system.
---If you don't understand that this seems very inefficient and time consuming compared to boxing training, which is accomplishing the same goal that you have described, then you obviously lack some common sense. You see, I view training the forms, the dummy, Chi Sau, and the pole has having a lot more purpose and depth than just learning to punch well. I understand what they are for. I just don't agree with what YOU are saying they are for. Because it all becomes pretty redundant if all you are worrying about is punching!
Remember that what you see of boxing is the cream of the elite performers.
---BS. The average amateur "club" boxer would give a Wing Chun guy with 10 years of training a good show in a sparring match.
VT is not ring fighting. It has a particular systematised approach aimed at ending street confrontation very rapidly.
---Well, I've got news for you. A street confrontation can involve a whole lot more than punching!
It is a very fast and safe way to punch in a high very stress situation where gross motor skill and thinking is compromised, and its design makes it particularly safe for the user in situations where there is no preparation and where time is critical. Safety and apparent speed (to the opponent) are the primary advantages of VT.
---Ah! Finally! That is most reasonable thing you've said so far! This I can agree with! But why would you then exclude so many other elements of a possible street confrontation? Again, you may need more than just punching in a fight, and Wing Chun as most people train it contains much more than just punching. What you have been describing all this time is a very one-dimensional view of Wing Chun. How is it that you cannot see that?
---Well, then I'll state the obvious one more time. Boxing training is a much efficient method to achieve that goal than the entire curriculum of WSLVT. You sure have a lot of "abstract" training for something that should be so simple.
The aim of any striking system is always to end the fight without being hit. That aims are not always achieved is not a criticism of those aims. After all, if we train to avoid being hit then over time we get better at avoiding being hit. If we train to accept being punched in the face then this is what tends to happen when we fight.
---Well sure. And a boxer trains plenty of footwork and upper body movement to avoid being hit as much as possible. In a perfect match he would go into the ring and dominate the opponent without the other guy ever landing a punch. But they don't count on that happening.
You only believe this to be the case because you don't understand the VT system.
---Oh, I understand the WING CHUN system fine. I just don't buy into the line you and LFJ are putting out. LFJ just told me I don't understand what you guys are saying because I have never trained your system. But at the same time you guys are saying that your system is THE Wing Chun system. You don't see a disconnect and contradiction there? You don't see that what you are describing differs from everyone else's Wing Chun? Even other WSL lineage people? And you believe that everyone else is wrong and misunderstands Wing Chun, rather than seeing your PBWSLVT approach as a specific development along a specific tactical approach? That's what I find "mind boggling"!
All of the VT training builds the ability to move and punch to end the fight rapidly and safely. This includes forms, dummy, chi sau, pole. That you don't understand this at all is a bit mind boggling. You obviously train a very different system.
---If you don't understand that this seems very inefficient and time consuming compared to boxing training, which is accomplishing the same goal that you have described, then you obviously lack some common sense. You see, I view training the forms, the dummy, Chi Sau, and the pole has having a lot more purpose and depth than just learning to punch well. I understand what they are for. I just don't agree with what YOU are saying they are for. Because it all becomes pretty redundant if all you are worrying about is punching!
Remember that what you see of boxing is the cream of the elite performers.
---BS. The average amateur "club" boxer would give a Wing Chun guy with 10 years of training a good show in a sparring match.
VT is not ring fighting. It has a particular systematised approach aimed at ending street confrontation very rapidly.
---Well, I've got news for you. A street confrontation can involve a whole lot more than punching!
It is a very fast and safe way to punch in a high very stress situation where gross motor skill and thinking is compromised, and its design makes it particularly safe for the user in situations where there is no preparation and where time is critical. Safety and apparent speed (to the opponent) are the primary advantages of VT.
---Ah! Finally! That is most reasonable thing you've said so far! This I can agree with! But why would you then exclude so many other elements of a possible street confrontation? Again, you may need more than just punching in a fight, and Wing Chun as most people train it contains much more than just punching. What you have been describing all this time is a very one-dimensional view of Wing Chun. How is it that you cannot see that?
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I think guy b. said previously that he does not want to train those other parts because he believes he can train other systems to learn to deal with those scenarios a lot better than doing WC/VT. So if that is the case maybe this is exactly the focus he wants. Of course I can not speak for him, it is just something I remember him saying.
As for LFJ I do not know, can not recall him saying anything on the matter.
I can denigrate obviously unrealistic bridging theories because I have fighting experience, but I won't say I don't believe you if you say they are part of the system you train.
But boxing doesn't accomplish the same goal. Our punching methods are entirely different and require different training methods.
In fighting it is a good idea to have experience of being hit and of being beaten, because without that it is difficult to know what to do when things go against you. But it isn't a good idea to learn to accept being hit as something ok that just happens. You should always try not to be hit.
Boxing is not VT; this is why the training is different. The goals of boxing and of VT are also different. Boxing is a set of competition rules and doesn't come as a systematised MA, and although different trainers teach various boxing systems, all are optimised for fighting in a ring wearing gloves to a particular rule set. VT is a Chinese MA system not aimed at fighting in a ring to a particular rule set wearing gloves.
"boxing training" is not a thing per se, because all boxing trainers teach different systems of boxing. Some bad trainers don't teach any system, or teach a system they don't understand very well. The VT system is a very particular systematised approach to fighting which, if not taught with the correct understanding, falls to bits and is a complete waste of time.
Neither do we.
The problem with the idea that your system is a system/a system that you understand is that you don't present arguments that hang together. Your thinking is incoherent. I don't see why you would be angry at me or LFJ for pointing this out.
That depends of the VT guy. Some yes, some no.
VT is about imposing upon the fight, not reacting to impositions from the opponent as they arise
VT is a way of ending standing confrontations quickly, primarily using hand strikes. This is a high percentage approach to fighting because most confrontations begin with hand strikes standing up. If you wish to train your VT for all eventualities including standing grappling and ground grappling, then you are taking a very unsuitable tool for the job and wasting a lot of tme trying to make it fit the job. Far more efficient to get really good where the system is good, and train other systems if you need anything else. Personally I also train bjj for the ground because it is pure fantasy to think VT can help there.
The problem with the idea that your system is a system/a system that you understand is that you don't present arguments that hang together. Your thinking is incoherent. I don't see why you would be angry at me or LFJ for pointing this out.
---
So what "incoherent" thinking do you believe you have pointed out?
VT is about imposing upon the fight, not reacting to impositions from the opponent as they arise
--You're just talking in circles now.
VT is a way of ending standing confrontations quickly, primarily using hand strikes.
---Sounds like boxing to me.
. If you wish to train your VT for all eventualities including standing grappling and ground grappling, then you are taking a very unsuitable tool for the job and wasting a lot of tme trying to make it fit the job.
---Now it is my turn to say you clearly don't understand Wing Chun!
If you could see beyond the punch, you would see that Wing Chun has plenty to offer. Again, its about establishing control of an opponent, not exchanging blows. Establishing control over an opponent can take many forms. Chi Sau is about gaining some level of control and superior positioning. Breaking the opponent's structure is an important part of this. There are some straight-forward joint manipulations that are part of the system. Heck, that classic old video tape that WSL did even shows him doing some simple foot sweeps!
---
So what "incoherent" thinking do you believe you have pointed out?VT is about imposing upon the fight, not reacting to impositions from the opponent as they arise
--You're just talking in circles now.
VT is a way of ending standing confrontations quickly, primarily using hand strikes.
---Sounds like boxing to me.
. If you wish to train your VT for all eventualities including standing grappling and ground grappling, then you are taking a very unsuitable tool for the job and wasting a lot of tme trying to make it fit the job.
---Now it is my turn to say you clearly don't understand Wing Chun!
If you could see beyond the punch, you would see that Wing Chun has plenty to offer. Again, its about establishing control of an opponent, not exchanging blows. Establishing control over an opponent can take many forms. Chi Sau is about gaining some level of control and superior positioning. Breaking the opponent's structure is an important part of this. There are some straight-forward joint manipulations that are part of the system. Heck, that classic old video tape that WSL did even shows him doing some simple foot sweeps!
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Not getting hit is this wierd non intuitive process. You have to accept being hit or you will fight flinchy.
When you can cope with being hit then you can work the defences that help you win fights.
There's a difference between accepting being hit and learning to deal with being hit. Acceptance is a bad mental attitude to cultivate in terms of being punched by another person.
I think you are probably talkiing about people beginning boxing where, yes, it is daunting to realise that someone is going to try and hit you in the face. You can learn to handle it though without accepting it as a normal and inevitable part of fighting. A stoic attitude is not what makes the best fighers.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Not really if you box. You are going to have to accept you will get hit pretty much until you stop boxing.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
This is not really correct. Because boxing actually does what it sets out to be. Punch top tier guys in the face while avoiding being punched in that competition setting.
VT may aim to end street confrontation quickly or whatever but does not set out to actually find top tier fighters and end them as quick as they can on the street.
So you could not find a VT guy who performs well at that goal.
You could identify a boxer who performs well at his.
So the idea of correct understanding becomes subjective in VT case
For me it is not acceptance. There are many guys in amateur boxing and MT who are happy to block with their face so long as they can hit the opponent. Boxing has a very high failure rate as a useful method of fighting.
Several VT groups that I know of either train with boxers or have guys with boxing experience. Real fighting is a very different thing from boxing in a ring.
I think you could actually. Boxing doesn't have a single systematic approach to real conflict. Where boxing systems have been designed by individuals they are focused on righ fighting, which is different to a real violent encounter.
Testing is very important in VT. That it isn't a spectacle you can observe doesn't mean it is not happening
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Exept it dosent test in a manner that reflects its goals.
So either sport fighting is not street fighting and so you have to street fight people.
Or it is close enough and you have to compete.
But either way you have to present a varifiable record of you doing that.
That is kind of the standard.
I mean if you build houses for a living you cant have on your resume.
Just because i built a house you cant observe dosent mean it is not an awesome house.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
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