Feelin' down...and a little advice?

[brocklee]

sparring will ALWAYS strengthen the core attributes of timing, accuracy, and defense

Not sure of how good your knowledge is about WC, but we use chi sao to work these attributes.

Sparring for WC is pretty much just playing around for us. Take a look at this: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/617621/wing_chun_sparring/

It appears silly and soft and kind of flamboyant, if you ask me. Almost pointless, other then the interaction with the training partner. The subject to the video states that they are sparring, to me it kinda looks like a free roaming chi sao session. Either way, they're just moving around and slapping each other. There is no energy battle of structure or definite move, as if it were a real fight. A WCer strives to end the fight with as few moves as possible. This sparring session here is just a waste of energy and is really one guy, the bigger one, showing how he can use intimidation to over power another student during training Non of the moves being thrown actually have a purpose other then point A to point B and "hey dude, I just got in on you"

The only way to truly work on WC fighting is to actually go out and use it.

 

[KamonGuy2]

wing chun includes much more than just chain punching. There are a lot of trapping moves that can work well on the floor, until you manage to get back to your feet....

Defiantely and I use these in BJJ, but you need baasic knowledge of grappling (ie mounting, side control etc) before you can apply trapping moves, otherwise you will be bucked off

If you have neutralized him with BJJ, then I suppose you have choked him out or dislocated his ankle or shoulder or something and the fight is over. You don't need to get back up and go into wing chun mode....

Woah woah, don't assume that neutralised means arm bars are finishing moves etc
When I say neutralised, I mean controlling your opponent etc. I would never use an arm bar on the ground in a street fight

Why would you ever BEGIN a fight on the ground? This just makes no sense. Something had to happen to get you there first....

Exactly. I have been attacked from behind, dragged to the floor, punched to the ground. All I'm saying is that a wing chunner should never assume that he will not go to ground. I found a clip on Youtube of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu artist the other day. It is a basic example of how BJJ guys can take down a kung fu guy. This is just one art.

Self defense is not about staying on the ground and attempting to win the submission. That is the realm of competition. In self defense, if you go to the ground then you need to work for the first chance to get back up and get away. You NEVER want to stick around and win the submission. That doesn't matter. All that matters is getting away with minimal injury....

Definately, I agree 100% with you. That is why I said that if I went to the floor I would get control and then get onto my feet. Ground is dangerous and if you have multiple attackers you are stuck

If you try to defeat a specialist in his area of specialty, you will lose. Never let him force you into his game. Make him play your game....

Sometimes you don't have a choice!! Like we mentioned previously, you could end up on the floor for whatever reason

Do you think that the average street punk, against whom you might need to defend yourself (not compete against, it's a different thing), is going to have training in BJJ? I seriously doubt it...

You would be surprised how many good basic grapplers there are out there. As I mentioned, I am not talking about high level BJJ'ers (if you met one of them, you would be in problems). But strong guys who can grip onto you like a vice or low level grappling practitioners.
But again, there is a lot of assumption from wing chunners that it will never happen

 

[KamonGuy2]

Not sure of how good your knowledge is about WC, but we use chi sao to work these attributes.

Sparring for WC is pretty much just playing around for us. Take a look at this: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/617621/wing_chun_sparring/

It appears silly and soft and kind of flamboyant, if you ask me. Almost pointless, other then the interaction with the training partner. The subject to the video states that they are sparring, to me it kinda looks like a free roaming chi sao session. Either way, they're just moving around and slapping each other. There is no energy battle of structure or definite move, as if it were a real fight. A WCer strives to end the fight with as few moves as possible. This sparring session here is just a waste of energy and is really one guy, the bigger one, showing how he can use intimidation to over power another student during training Non of the moves being thrown actually have a purpose other then point A to point B and "hey dude, I just got in on you"

The only way to truly work on WC fighting is to actually go out and use it.

Brock, you are bang on the money once again. I personally detest the word sparring in wing chun. Sparring is for people who do sports based martial arts. In Kamon we call them 'feeding techniques' where one person attacks with anything you like and you got to defend it!

Chi sao is probably the closest thing to a spar in wing chun as it builds up all those attributes previously mentioned

Padding up and going at it is just a waste of time. You want real impacts, skin on skin

 

[Selfcritical]

You would be surprised how many good basic grapplers there are out there. As I mentioned, I am not talking about high level BJJ'ers (if you met one of them, you would be in problems). But strong guys who can grip onto you like a vice or low level grappling practitioners.
But again, there is a lot of assumption from wing chunners that it will never happen

Given the popularity of both folkstyle wrestling and american rules football, the percentage of people starting bar fights with some skill in taking people to the ground is not neglible.

 

[AceHBK]

Great set of questions A good deal of the videos that are demonstrating chain punches come from either WT or a type of WC that has incorporated it into their system. I was taught by my first instructor, "When in doubt, chain punch out." At the time this seemed like a great idea and was very effect against the untrained. If you take a close look at the stance, an individual that chain punches ends up redirecting the energy backwards causing them to move from a 50/50 stance to more of a 30/70 stance. If they can fight to stay up right, it will cause the elbows to kick out just to keep the chain going. From the get go energy is being lost. It conflicts with the efficiency concept. Also, in order to do a series of chain punches, you are required to stop the arm's motion prior to its full extension. It requires the use of the tricep to stop the arm which causes the practitioner to flex at least twice a second or even more depending on how fast the guy thinks he is Another efficiency issue.

Chain punches look pretty cool when done with temporary accuracy and bursts of speed. This usually gives a nice blur and adds a little hollywood effect to the video. Because the videos aren't SO boring, people place them online. A good solid WC punch has no dress up to it and doesn't draw attention...Other then when you put out candles with it or flick your cigarette ash using the one incher


All the other techniques are still there but not used as much because WC wasn't properly drilled into the student's head. I stated prior that some students misinterpret the lesson behind timing and sensitivity drills and believe that the purpose is to build a certain type of "combo flow", which it's not. It's not good when this happens because it sends the student down a misleading path and will hinder the speed at which they learn WC.

I don't believe that we have moves specific to the leg trap but with WC you can take a simple move and make it do anything for you. Just depends on how you work it. I wouldn't suggest trapping the legs because it's so much easier to just pop the guy in the face, chest or neck.



WCer's don't really spar, we play around with other students, train or use it. The answer to your question is no. The head tilts back because of fear and causes the individual to lose their center and structure. They're already in the position to fall back. If I we're the opponent, I would simply step in and push their chest. My structure would cause them to topple over. The head must remain in the position which best suits your structure and the chin tucked in. Don't worry about being struck in the face. You'll forget it even happened if you win the fight. If you get put in the situation to where you think your face is going to get struck, mmmm block it? hehe


Cheers

Thanks!!! You have educated me.

 

[Tordk]

hehe.. just remembered something I once read.. "There are no championships in Wing Chun, because there would be a winner on the podium, and everybody else would be in the hospital..

but i agree to that sparring with some friends of yours, never will be the same as an actual fight.. Let´s be honest.. a lot of the movements in wing chun wil by many be considered as unfair moves.. :S

 

[KamonGuy2]

hehe.. just remembered something I once read.. "There are no championships in Wing Chun, because there would be a winner on the podium, and everybody else would be in the hospital..

but i agree to that sparring with some friends of yours, never will be the same as an actual fight.. Let´s be honest.. a lot of the movements in wing chun wil by many be considered as unfair moves.. :S

I know that they do hold chi sao tournaments in Hong kong every now and then and people have tried to arrange a 'no holes barred' tournament

For me, sport is sport. Wing chun is for when you are in that bar fight and don't want to end up submitting someone

 

[brocklee]

hehe.. just remembered something I once read.. "There are no championships in Wing Chun, because there would be a winner on the podium, and everybody else would be in the hospital..

but i agree to that sparring with some friends of yours, never will be the same as an actual fight.. Let´s be honest.. a lot of the movements in wing chun wil by many be considered as unfair moves.. :S

That's pretty funny

 

[Tordk]

yeah I thought it was a pretty fun fact as well..

 

[qwksilver61]

First off
1) Time factor;Wing Tsun has to be prepped,cooked,presented,eaten,& digested.Hence;Siu nim Tau SMALL Ideal
2) 2nd form; Chum Kiu arm seeking form or bridge arms (still considered a learning stage at this point) can use skills but not at a high level of proficiency.Time involved at this point at least two years.
do yourself a favor and take a look at the Wing Tsun grading system for a detailed explanation.
I would not attempt to take on someone from another style unless I reached at least a level beyond the student grades.1-5 and there is a reason for this.
3) Real kung Fu/ Martial arts fighting involves time for real,most people want fast food fast and nobody wants to work for it.
Wing Tsun is an awesome and dynamic fighting art and involves a great deal of commitment,patience,and an un-learning of tension and the urge to power through.need more?

 

[Nyrotic]

First off
1) Time factor;Wing Tsun has to be prepped,cooked,presented,eaten,& digested.Hence;Siu nim Tau SMALL Ideal
2) 2nd form; Chum Kiu arm seeking form or bridge arms (still considered a learning stage at this point) can use skills but not at a high level of proficiency.Time involved at this point at least two years.
do yourself a favor and take a look at the Wing Tsun grading system for a detailed explanation.
I would not attempt to take on someone from another style unless I reached at least a level beyond the student grades.1-5 and there is a reason for this.
3) Real kung Fu/ Martial arts fighting involves time for real,most people want fast food fast and nobody wants to work for it.
Wing Tsun is an awesome and dynamic fighting art and involves a great deal of commitment,patience,and an un-learning of tension and the urge to power through.need more?

No thanks, I'm full ^_^

I've been doing some thinking, and thanks to some personal insight, as well as most of you here, I've come to realize that I am simply an inexperienced MA'ist. I think the one thing that REALLY does tick me off, however, is that to THIS DAY, my 'friend' is always flaunting about how he beat me the last two 'fights'. It takes all my reserve to not attack him while walking home sometimes. If anything, his little glory run is probably what made me feel bad in the first place.

One last thing....why do my threads always turn into battlefields?

-Nyro

 

[barnaby]

"I think the one thing that REALLY does tick me off, however, is that to THIS DAY, my 'friend' is always flaunting about how he beat me the last two 'fights'."


he'll have his card pulled soon if that's the kind of character he has. it's a shame that people weigh self-esteem on this sort of thing.

and on conversations about whether or not it's important to train outside of one's form to prepare for things like going to the ground.

one's form is a very personal choice, and doesn't have as many limitations as people think. there's nothing that says one can't be influenced by other players while staying in the context of one's form. I don't have a problem with MMA fighters -- I admire and even work out with them when it's mutually beneficial.

I am bored to tears with MMA rhetoric finding its way into what's supposed to be an exploration of the Wing Chun form.

sorry, Nyrotic, if I end up perpetuating the battle you mentioned.

 

[DaveyBoy]

I think the one thing that REALLY does tick me off, however, is that to THIS DAY, my 'friend' is always flaunting about how he beat me the last two 'fights'. It takes all my reserve to not attack him while walking home sometimes. If anything, his little glory run is probably what made me feel bad in the first place.

Don't worry about it mate. Think of it this way - your friend is bragging about the fact that he's helping you find the flaws in your application of Wing Chun! You can now address them. Once you have, your Wing Chun will be better and you'll reach the point where he'll never beat you again no matter how hard he tries. Just give it time!

 

[SilatFan]

No thanks, I'm full ^_^

I've been doing some thinking, and thanks to some personal insight, as well as most of you here, I've come to realize that I am simply an inexperienced MA'ist. I think the one thing that REALLY does tick me off, however, is that to THIS DAY, my 'friend' is always flaunting about how he beat me the last two 'fights'. It takes all my reserve to not attack him while walking home sometimes. If anything, his little glory run is probably what made me feel bad in the first place.

One last thing....why do my threads always turn into battlefields?

-Nyro

Wow... Gone a while and things really take off.

Do like you have figured out. Keep training and growing. Next time your friends 'laughing' begins to get to you ask yourself why it bothers you so much. Be honest with yourself and dont settle for a superficial answer. Your 'friend' could end up helping you learn more about yourself than just what/how your are as a WC practitioner.

 

[Sukerkin]

Now that's good advice to take home and keep - well said that man :tup:.

 

[brocklee]

First off
1) Time factor;Wing Tsun has to be prepped,cooked,presented,eaten,& digested.Hence;Siu nim Tau SMALL Ideal
2) 2nd form; Chum Kiu arm seeking form or bridge arms (still considered a learning stage at this point) can use skills but not at a high level of proficiency.Time involved at this point at least two years.
do yourself a favor and take a look at the Wing Tsun grading system for a detailed explanation.
I would not attempt to take on someone from another style unless I reached at least a level beyond the student grades.1-5 and there is a reason for this.
3) Real kung Fu/ Martial arts fighting involves time for real,most people want fast food fast and nobody wants to work for it.
Wing Tsun is an awesome and dynamic fighting art and involves a great deal of commitment,patience,and an un-learning of tension and the urge to power through.need more?

Is this a joke? lol you said power through

 

[bcbernam777]

No thanks, I'm full ^_^

I've been doing some thinking, and thanks to some personal insight, as well as most of you here, I've come to realize that I am simply an inexperienced MA'ist. I think the one thing that REALLY does tick me off, however, is that to THIS DAY, my 'friend' is always flaunting about how he beat me the last two 'fights'. It takes all my reserve to not attack him while walking home sometimes. If anything, his little glory run is probably what made me feel bad in the first place.

One last thing....why do my threads always turn into battlefields?

-Nyro

Let him have his glory, he will get soft while you train your *** off and beat the living daylights out of him ....

...Wasnt that in a movie once.

Seriously, get out and train with more people in the style that you are finding problems with, even when you are beaten you can learn lessons. Every time I fight or spar, I look at the whole picture, what worked, what didn't, how could I improve, what would I do next time I had to face a similar attack, on and on the questions come, but remember this one saying "questions are king" learn to ask them, look for the answers and you will improve, and remember also that 1% improvment every day has a compounding effect, over time.

Respectfully

Mark

 

[KamonGuy2]

"I think the one thing that REALLY does tick me off, however, is that to THIS DAY, my 'friend' is always flaunting about how he beat me the last two 'fights'."


he'll have his card pulled soon if that's the kind of character he has. it's a shame that people weigh self-esteem on this sort of thing.

and on conversations about whether or not it's important to train outside of one's form to prepare for things like going to the ground.

one's form is a very personal choice, and doesn't have as many limitations as people think. there's nothing that says one can't be influenced by other players while staying in the context of one's form. I don't have a problem with MMA fighters -- I admire and even work out with them when it's mutually beneficial.

I am bored to tears with MMA rhetoric finding its way into what's supposed to be an exploration of the Wing Chun form.

sorry, Nyrotic, if I end up perpetuating the battle you mentioned.

It is very important to not be led into thinking that wing chun can cover everything. Wing chun can be used for grappling but you need to understand basic concepts like mounting, guards etc, which do not come from wing chun. The wing chun grappling I have seen both through various classes and videos from youtube etc has been very poor.
I would love to know, hand on heart, if any wing chunners on here who have not been trained in any grappling art have ever outdone someone on the floor or outdone a grappler

Wing chun is a great art, but a full contact art. It is difficult to use light wing chun for any kind of simulated fighting. In boxing you can spar light or hard, but in wing chun, if you do a light punch, your partner wouldn't react in the same way they would if you threw in a hard punch. This makes any kind of light simulated fighting unrealistic and difficult against a MMA'er. In a real confrontation, I will smash the person in with hard punches, etc and they will fall over, cover up or counter differently to how you do with a friendly training partner in class

 

[qwksilver61]

In response to Brocklee; a true Wing Tsun man never powers (ie; the bicep & the tricep working against one another)through,in the real school of Wing Tsun you have to understand "preserving the gravity of the trunk" this is achieved through the repetitive wall bag exercises,if your shoulders move back when your punch is delivered,you are pushing (forcing your punch) if you have to reach you are commiting and not preserving the gravity of the trunk.
Over time by smacking the wallbag will you develop smackdown power similar to a whip (that is why it is most important to relax,in time you will develop a springy muscle) add the turnstile effect,straightline attack,and there you go. Call/ask any practitioner of The Wing Tsun system and he will probably give you an explanation,or you can buy the books,but as a good student knows there is nothing like real instruction,the books only aid in explaining theory.Do some homework,Or find a real school.For the other fellow don't give up!persevere! Find a real Wing Tsun school,go online.Someday.......

 

[barnaby]

It is very important to not be led into thinking that wing chun can cover everything. Wing chun can be used for grappling but you need to understand basic concepts like mounting, guards etc, which do not come from wing chun. The wing chun grappling I have seen both through various classes and videos from youtube etc has been very poor.
I would love to know, hand on heart, if any wing chunners on here who have not been trained in any grappling art have ever outdone someone on the floor or outdone a grappler

I understand you don't want anyone being overconfident about going to the ground without proper training. all I'm saying is that there's a structure to Wing Chun which will work on the ground as well, and yes I've found benefit from this structure, on the ground. just as I'm able to get more done standing, as a result of understanding a kind of efficiency of body structure, that has served me on the ground.

I also was saying that we can be influenced, even train in other styles once that structure is strongly in place and remain within the spirit of Wing Chun. it becomes a part of you when taught/trained properly, and it isn't a matter of "switching" from one style to the next depending on where you are anymore -- it's all within the structure of the primary art when that structure settles into the practitioners body to a certain degree.

I don't see it as a matter of techniques -- it's way beyond that to me, though a natural fighter-- athlete can easily latch onto techniques from various styles and do well -- that and a willingness to give or take a beating willl go a long way in martial sports and street fighting, I respect that and I respect its power but it's not the same thing as training in the spirit of an art. to me.

thanks, Barnaby