Feelin' down...and a little advice?

[Tanizaki]

it's not the same thing. Boxers are both fighting under the SAME RULES. They agree to abide by the rules, they wear gloves that affect how they can attack each other, and they have at it.

Then maybe you can answer my question that remains unanswered: If it makes you lose when there are rules, what makes you think you'll win when there are no rules?

However, this is very different from the original post. Nyrotic is primarily a striker. He was horsing around with friends. Some of the friends are grapplers, or at least are instinctive grapplers without formal training. They are both approaching the game, the horse play, with different assumptions. Nyrotic throws a punch that lands, but because these are friends, he pulls his power and doesn't injure them. He is operating under the assumption that his friends will acknowledge and respect that punch, and recognize the fact that they would have been injured if he had not pulled his power back. But because the punch did no actual damage, the friends ignore it, charge in and grapple him down. Grappling techs cannot be ignored, and they are much much easier to execute at less than full power. Grappling has an advantage under horseplay, where nobody wants to really hurt anybody. Grappling techs can be executed to just the level needed to control the opponent without injury. Striking techs don't have this capability. They either injure, or they do not. If they do not, and the other guy chooses to not respect the fact that he just got hit, then it doesn't work.

You weren't there, so you have no idea how the bouts went. That is speculation. Let's say he was going full force where there are "no rules", as is often claimed. Does everyone else have a glass jaw so that Nyrotic's one punch is going to KO every opponent so they'll never get a chance to grapple him?

I'm sorry, but "I would win if not for the rules" is still weak sauce. I don't think Nyrotic said that, but brocklee. I always get a kick when I say something to him that everyone has to be his internet lawyer. I must be a top notch opponent.:2xbird:

 

[Tanizaki]

As to why competition's exist these days for martial arts, well that's a whole other subject that is worthy of a thread of it's own. Personally, I'm not in favour of them as being indicative of anything other than being able to win competitions.

Would you feel comfortable meeting the world boxing champion of your weight class in a dark alley? I wouldn't.

 

[brocklee]

Now that's a much better rebuttal than mine FC - excellent expression of some of what I was trying to say :rei:.

Yes, I agree. Nicely put.

 

[Tanizaki]

Yes, I agree. Nicely put.

I am in search of an internet lawyer. Pro bono, of course.

 

[Sukerkin]

Depends ... is he drunk ? Am I the bestest Lau Gar practitioner ever?

Are you a political science student, Tani? I just ask because I get the distinct impression of 'answering a question with a question' from your good self and an unwillingness to seek any common ground for real debate.

Anyway, I'm tired and I'm away up the wooden hills. My parting words remain that I don't concur with your analysis but, in the end, that doesn't mean you don't have every right to be secure within your convictions. :rei:.

 

[Flying Crane]

Then maybe you can answer my question that remains unanswered: If it makes you lose when there are rules, what makes you think you'll win when there are no rules?

Nothing in life is guaranteed. But if he is allowed to hit with full force, and no target and no technique is off limits, he has a much better chance to use his art as it was designed, and may perhaps win. At this point, it depends on the skill of the individual.

You weren't there, so you have no idea how the bouts went. That is speculation.

true, that is simply how his description seemed to me. Perhaps he can come back and give some more clarity. I could be wrong. And you could be wrong.

Let's say he was going full force where there are "no rules", as is often claimed. Does everyone else have a glass jaw so that Nyrotic's one punch is going to KO every opponent so they'll never get a chance to grapple him?

depends on how things happen. Maybe one punch, maybe 10 will do the job. Maybe he still loses. But his chances will improve if he is allowed to go full contact with every target and every technique allowed.

I'm sorry, but "I would win if not for the rules" is still weak sauce.

I don't think it's "I would win if not for the rules", but rather, "the art I practice doesn't work well under restrictive rules, and I am not good at playing the sparring game. Beyond that, it all depends".

:2xbird:

We were having a discussion, it was civil. Grow up.

 

[Tanizaki]

Are you a political science student, Tani? I just ask because I get the distinct impression of 'answering a question with a question' from your good self and an unwillingness to seek any common ground for real debate.

I was graduated from university in 1996. Could you please cite where I answered a question with a question?

The "common ground" comment is a straw man. Furthermore, I wonder why you place that onus solely on my shoulders.

 

[Tanizaki]

Nothing in life is guaranteed. But if he is allowed to hit with full force, and no target and no technique is off limits, he has a much better chance to use his art as it was designed, and may perhaps win. At this point, it depends on the skill of the individual.

This is not responsive.

true, that is simply how his description seemed to me. Perhaps he can come back and give some more clarity. I could be wrong. And you could be wrong.

I don't think I was wrong when I said you were speculating.

depends on how things happen. Maybe one punch, maybe 10 will do the job. Maybe he still loses. But his chances will improve if he is allowed to go full contact with every target and every technique allowed.

He's probably not going to get in 10 punches before being taken to the ground.

I don't think it's "I would win if not for the rules", but rather, "the art I practice doesn't work well under restrictive rules, and I am not good at playing the sparring game. Beyond that, it all depends".

"I would win if not for the rules" is exactly what it is. You just repeated it ("the art I practice doesn't work well under restrictive rules"), except with a bit of spin doctoring about the sparring "game".

We were having a discussion, it was civil. Grow up.

My internet debating is best when I am not constrained by rules.

 

[theletch1]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jeff Letchford
-MT Moderator-

 

[Flying Crane]

have fun entertaining yourself.

 

[AceHBK]

Chain punches are for the inaccurate and those that don't have enough confidence in their blocking abilities. You can deliver the same amount of dmg with a single 1 inch punch to the chest, neck or face.

Why is it presented so strongly then. Everytime I look on youtube or go to a WC website, you see one or 2 strikes and then a million chain punches OR you see people doing chi sao (sp?) and they are showing how fast they can strike. What happened to all the other techniques of WC? I don't ever see any sort of footwork aor blocking techniques exclusively. Does WC have leg trapping techniques as well?If anyone has any clips I would love to see them and I am not meaning this in a sarcastic way

Also I see when people "spar" they seem to tilt their head back in order to to get hit in the face....is doing this correct? Should your head be tilted back to help avoid being striked in the face or should your head be str8?


Here is a video I found that was great while searching youtube. Features a Master Wong Nim Yi. I have no idea of who he is..maybe someone else does.

 

[brocklee]

Why is it presented so strongly then. Everytime I look on youtube or go to a WC website, you see one or 2 strikes and then a million chain punches OR you see people doing chi sao (sp?) and they are showing how fast they can strike.

Great set of questions A good deal of the videos that are demonstrating chain punches come from either WT or a type of WC that has incorporated it into their system. I was taught by my first instructor, "When in doubt, chain punch out." At the time this seemed like a great idea and was very effect against the untrained. If you take a close look at the stance, an individual that chain punches ends up redirecting the energy backwards causing them to move from a 50/50 stance to more of a 30/70 stance. If they can fight to stay up right, it will cause the elbows to kick out just to keep the chain going. From the get go energy is being lost. It conflicts with the efficiency concept. Also, in order to do a series of chain punches, you are required to stop the arm's motion prior to its full extension. It requires the use of the tricep to stop the arm which causes the practitioner to flex at least twice a second or even more depending on how fast the guy thinks he is Another efficiency issue.

Chain punches look pretty cool when done with temporary accuracy and bursts of speed. This usually gives a nice blur and adds a little hollywood effect to the video. Because the videos aren't SO boring, people place them online. A good solid WC punch has no dress up to it and doesn't draw attention...Other then when you put out candles with it or flick your cigarette ash using the one incher

What happened to all the other techniques of WC? I don't ever see any sort of footwork aor blocking techniques exclusively. Does WC have leg trapping techniques as well?If anyone has any clips I would love to see them and I am not meaning this in a sarcastic way

All the other techniques are still there but not used as much because WC wasn't properly drilled into the student's head. I stated prior that some students misinterpret the lesson behind timing and sensitivity drills and believe that the purpose is to build a certain type of "combo flow", which it's not. It's not good when this happens because it sends the student down a misleading path and will hinder the speed at which they learn WC.

I don't believe that we have moves specific to the leg trap but with WC you can take a simple move and make it do anything for you. Just depends on how you work it. I wouldn't suggest trapping the legs because it's so much easier to just pop the guy in the face, chest or neck.

Also I see when people "spar" they seem to tilt their head back in order to to get hit in the face....is doing this correct? Should your head be tilted back to help avoid being striked in the face or should your head be str8?

WCer's don't really spar, we play around with other students, train or use it. The answer to your question is no. The head tilts back because of fear and causes the individual to lose their center and structure. They're already in the position to fall back. If I we're the opponent, I would simply step in and push their chest. My structure would cause them to topple over. The head must remain in the position which best suits your structure and the chin tucked in. Don't worry about being struck in the face. You'll forget it even happened if you win the fight. If you get put in the situation to where you think your face is going to get struck, mmmm block it? hehe


Cheers

 

[theletch1]

WCer's don't really spar, we play around with other students, train or use it. The answer to your question is no. The head tilts back because of fear and causes the individual to lose their center and structure. They're already in the position to fall back. If I we're the opponent, I would simply step in and push their chest. My structure would cause them to topple over. The head must remain in the position which best suits your structure and the chin tucked in. Don't worry about being struck in the face. You'll forget it even happened if you win the fight. If you get put in the situation to where you think your face is going to get struck, mmmm block it? hehe


Cheers

My aikido instructor has used the analogy that your head is simply an egg sitting in a hollowed out space on top of your shoulders. Lean the head back too far and it will fall out. Lean your body forward too far and it will fall out. Proper body structure is imperative if you are using your center to generate power.

 

[brocklee]

My aikido instructor has used the analogy that your head is simply an egg sitting in a hollowed out space on top of your shoulders. Lean the head back too far and it will fall out. Lean your body forward too far and it will fall out. Proper body structure is imperative if you are using your center to generate power.

I've never heard that before but it does apply well. Thx

 

[barnaby]

WCer's don't really spar, we play around with other students, train or use it. The answer to your question is no. The head tilts back because of fear and causes the individual to lose their center and structure. They're already in the position to fall back.


Cheers[/quote]


this is a Wing Chun forum -- thank you for bringing up structure.

 

[Selfcritical]

It's a lot easier then trying to keep them separate. I do think that if I were to select another fighting style it would be BJJ. It's a great style. However, there's much more to be learned in my WC and don't see time in the future to incorporate it into my training.

I believe if you're training 2 styles, you will start switching between the two when called into a fight. When this happens, I would say that its MMA. If you can stick to the BJJ in one fight and then use only WC in another, then you are really good at mental and physical control. It would be difficult to rely on muscle memory, that's for sure.

With these two arts, it's pretty freakin simple; if you're not on your back or sitting on top of the person, don't use BJJ. Use what standup skill you have to knock them silly or take them down. Once their on the ground or they've taken you to the ground, finish there.

 

[Selfcritical]

It's really difficult to "play spar" with friends, using any traditional martial art. You are just playing, not reallying fighting, so whatever you throw at them, you can't really hurt them. If you tag your grappling buddy with a punch and say "I just nailed you", he says "no you didn't, it didn't hurt me!" and then he just grapples you down. A lot of traditional martial arts, esp. those geared toward striking, just don't work if you do them "half way". It's really a matter of all or nothing. You need to use it 100%, or not at all 'cause it won't work if you don't.

No matter what strikes you're using, the ability to hit the guy when he's trying to hit you is a useful ability. The ability to not get hit when he's actively trying to hit you is just as essential. Sparring under lighter contact might not work every tool you have, and thus you have whatever additional drilling your system calls for, but sparring will ALWAYS strengthen the core attributes of timing, accuracy, and defense that will come up in the application of ALL techniques. You want to be more confident about how your techinques will work when someone is trying to stop you? Spar under a variety of rulesets as often as they can. Yes, some of your techniques won't be as effective as they are in real life......as long as you're getting better at actually landing, who cares if your sparring partner knows you could have hurt him worse?

 

[Selfcritical]

I think the OP's problem was that he is inexperienced. Still, he should be able to do better against untrained fighters, no matter what style he practices.

Unless they are more explosive athletes who are more aggressive than he is. Someone with 6 months in a martial art will generally get creamed by a football player with 30 pounds and years of being used to getting hit as hard as people can. This isn't discounting the importance of training, just noting that sometimes you'll get beat by genetics and conditioning.

 

[bcbernam777]

have fun entertaining yourself.

I wouldn't even waste the the typing energy with him :snipe2:

 

[brocklee]

Unless they are more explosive athletes who are more aggressive than he is. Someone with 6 months in a martial art will generally get creamed by a football player with 30 pounds and years of being used to getting hit as hard as people can. This isn't discounting the importance of training, just noting that sometimes you'll get beat by genetics and conditioning.

Very smart