Family related techniques in tracy kenpo

[Carol]

\
Am I supposed to fgeel bad about being inquisitive? To want to study various arts and disciplines searching for the similarities of those given arts? Should I swim in the muck and mire of mediocracy? No thanks,I didn't bring my water wings!LOL!
I go to events like the gathering of eagles to get greater insight into kenpo and I'm so fortunate to have met many people who were more thasn willing to share their knowlwdge of thweir given styles. How lucky am i?

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Joe...the day you stop being inquisitive will be the day you need CPR. I hope that day never comes soon.

I can't remember when you and I were chatting, I think it might have been when I bought my condo...you mentioned that I was lucky. And I said no...it wasn't luck...it was a lot of work. Now its my turn to bounce the same sentiment back atcha. You're not lucky. You've earned it the opportunity to teach at GoE and the like.

Personally, I'd be very interested in reading a discussion of Tracy Kenpo...if anyone is up for discussing it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Personally, I'd be very interested in reading a discussion of Tracy Kenpo...if anyone is up for discussing it.

And the CMA guy will second that

 

[Flying Crane]

Tracy guy here, discuss away...

I find that the Tracy people are not as inclined to discuss the technical details of our system as are the kenpo folks from other lineages. Not that there isn't stuff to discuss, but I suspect we are all more on the same page and don't have as much to bicker about as other lineages have

.
We kind of say, "hey, whaddaya think about XYZ tech?" and the other Tracy folks say, "yeah, I like it, it's cool", and it often doesn't go far from that. Much more entertaining to have a buch of bickering over the fine points of the tech, but seems like the Tracy folks are less inclined to do that. Just my own observations.

But hey, if ya gots a question or something, I'll see if I have something to add...

 

[MJS]

I have a question: How many people, either Parker, Tracy, or Kaju (not even sure if this applies to Kaju, but figured I'd ask anyways ) focus on the family groupings? Now, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to kill this thread, just wondering if this is something that people focus on in class. I ask this, because I usually do not focus on this. Personally, I dont get too wrapped up in the techs. I mean, yes, of course I teach them, as examples of a possible solution to an attack, but once they get them down, I tell them not to be bound by the tech., but instead to use that as a base, and build your own response from there.

As for the other issues....lol..well, probably shouldn't, but I will anyways. People say that it takes a lifetime to master an art. Maybe thats true, maybe it isn't. I think there is always something 'new' so to speak, to learn. I train in 2 other arts aside from Kenpo, 1 of them I'm ranked in (1st degree black) the other I really have no interest in rank. Obviously I'm ranked in Kenpo. People ask me all the time how its possible to do more than 1. My goal is simply to train. However long it takes, is how long it takes. So, when people see others with high ranks in mult. arts, I'm sure it makes people wonder. Interestingly enough, I was reading a post over at the Kaju Cafe the other day. Can't link to it, as its in a section, in which you need to be a member to view. Anyways, it was a post by John Bishop, posting a message by the KSDI BOA. It was talking about the qualifications for 8th Degree BB, Prof. #1 states that you need a min. of 30yrs in Kaju. So, I take this as you need to have put in a full 30yrs at least, before you can even be considered by the BOA for advancement. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance, and would hope that a Kaju person, ie: Dan or John would correct me. Anyways, I think its clear where I'm going with that.

 

[Danjo]

Anyways, it was a post by John Bishop, posting a message by the KSDI BOA. It was talking about the qualifications for 8th Degree BB, Prof. #1 states that you need a min. of 30yrs in Kaju. So, I take this as you need to have put in a full 30yrs at least, before you can even be considered by the BOA for advancement. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance, and would hope that a Kaju person, ie: Dan or John would correct me. Anyways, I think its clear where I'm going with that.

No you're correct. Those guidelines used to be informal, but now they are codified for the KSDI.

We all know that one can get to a shodan/1st degree rank in many arts in 3-5 years of study (exceptions being BJJ and those who fail to practice, or have no apptitude for the art). We also know that in related arts, that time would be cut down if one were already well versed in one before training in another. For instance, I doubt it would take a Judo black belt ten full years to get a black belt in BJJ, or a Shotokan black belt three years to get a black belt in Chinto Ryu etc since the styles are not far apart. But high ranks in multiple arts is a whole different kettle of fish. But like I said, there's no central body that regulates this stuff, so having high ranks in a bunch of arts that no one really ever heard of is what it is. What can you do?

Back to the original question: Flying Crane, do the pre-set techniques in the Tracy system vary from school to school in terms of how they look? Do you find them to be fairly uniform in their execution, or do you see a fair amount of freestyling depending on the instructor?

 

[MJS]

No you're correct. Those guidelines used to be informal, but now they are codified for the KSDI.

Thanks.

We all know that one can get to a shodan/1st degree rank in many arts in 3-5 years of study (exceptions being BJJ and those who fail to practice, or have no apptitude for the art). We also know that in related arts, that time would be cut down if one were already well versed in one before training in another. For instance, I doubt it would take a Judo black belt ten full years to get a black belt in BJJ, or a Shotokan black belt three years to get a black belt in Chinto Ryu etc since the styles are not far apart. But high ranks in multiple arts is a whole different kettle of fish. But like I said, there's no central body that regulates this stuff, so having high ranks in a bunch of arts that no one really ever heard of is what it is. What can you do?

What can you do? Other than doing what the KDSI did, probably not much.

Back to the original question: Flying Crane, do the pre-set techniques in the Tracy system vary from school to school in terms of how they look? Do you find them to be fairly uniform in their execution, or do you see a fair amount of freestyling depending on the instructor?

I transitioned to Tracy from Parker. I'm going to say that it'll vary from school to school. IIRC, quite a while ago, I asked, in the Tracy section here, about a tech. The way I do the tech vs the replies that I received, were different. Additionally, we have a smaller list of techs per belt, which is fine with me.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have a question: How many people, either Parker, Tracy, or Kaju (not even sure if this applies to Kaju, but figured I'd ask anyways ) focus on the family groupings?

In the two schools I've trained in, we've never discussed it in that way, at least not when I've been present. I tend to notice similarities in certain techs, how they at least initially respond to an attack. To me, that's often the meat of the tech, that initial survival maneuvering. Deal with the incoming attack and set up to respond. That's what's most important, and that's where I sometimes notice similarities from one tech to another. The specific follow-ups are, in my opinion, less important. I see those as illustrating options that are available depending on specific circumstances, or depending on personal preference. But that initial survival of the attack, I think those could be grouped as sort of a "family".

But like I said, that's mostly in my own head. Never had the discussion in class or with any of my teachers.

 

[Flying Crane]

Back to the original question: Flying Crane, do the pre-set techniques in the Tracy system vary from school to school in terms of how they look? Do you find them to be fairly uniform in their execution, or do you see a fair amount of freestyling depending on the instructor?

In my own experience, they've been pretty close and uniform. My first school in Wisconsin where I trained in the mid 1980s had a teacher who was a few generations removed from Al Tracy. When I began training with Ted Sumner just a few years ago, most of what I remembered from the old days was very very close to how Ted was teaching me. He helped me understand a whole lot better what I was trying to accomplish with them, and helped solidify them, but the basic mechanics of it were very close. And of course Ted is first generation student from the early days under Al and Jim Tracy.

I've seen where some people are doing things differently. Back in the early days the curriculum was a bit different, and I believe some schools still teach off the old tech lists. So there are obvious differences there, tho much/most is the same.

Like MJS said, I've seen discussion on the internet that indicated some differences, and I've seen video on youtube that have differences. On the whole, I'd say it's more similar than different, tho. The difference are often minor, focusing more on the final follow-ups and stuff, with the meat of the tech pretty close. It's like saying, I end XYZ tech with a punch to the nose, but HE ends it with a palm-heel to the nose. Really, there's no difference in what's happening, other than a minor personal choice.

If something is really quite different, I'd suspect it's not so much a personal freestyle choice, but might be more that the instructor doesn't really understand what the tech is meant to accomplish. It might have gotten misunderstood or something, and the next thing you know, the instructor has turned it into something else altogether. But I think there is a certain amount of room for adjusting a finer point that makes sense to you. The discussion on Windmill Guard from a couple weeks back sort of illustrates some of that.

 

[Flying Crane]

a couple further thoughts that have occurred to me...

I've never been one to go and check out all the kenpo schools nearby. Simply never had the interest to do so, even those in my own lineage. So I'm probably not the best one to talk about comparisons between how this and that instructor do things.

It's tempting to look at someone else and see them doing something different and think to yourself, "hey, what does HE know that I don't? Am I missing something? Is his stuff better than mine?" I think that's a common and understandable reaction to seeing someone who is doing differently something that is supposed to be the same.

I've come to realize that it doesn't matter. There ought to be an underlying method and foundation for delivering all of your techniques. If you understand that foundation and method, and you work deliberately to utilize it with all of your techniques, and you understand that the techniques and kata are mainly tools used to develop the ability to use the foundation and method under all circumstances, that is what is important. The specifics of the tech, just exactly where are you hitting the bad guy, well it's important, yes. But it's of secondary importance to developing the foundation and delivery method. That is number one importance and all other things are secondary. People often focus on bunkai as the secrets in kata and stuff. I don't believe it is. Rather, kata is a tool for developing that foundation and delivery method, and learning to use it under all situations. I think a lot of people get worked up over the wrong things. They get worked up over the specific bunkai, when they ought to be getting worked up over foundation and delivery. That's my opinion.

So when it comes to different teachers teaching the techs with variations, I don't automatically get concerned over it. If the foundation and delivery are strong, then the rest falls into place, even if specific bunkai might be somewhat different.

 

[KENPOJOE]

no worries, everyone has their own motivations for doing what they do.

I've spent years training in systems other than kenpo, done my own looking around to see and experience and gain some skills in whatever else is out there too. I actually do understand where you are coming from.

For myself, I guess I'm kind of going thru a period in my own training now where I'm feeling like "less is more", and I'm focusing down on what I really want to work on and not spending much time on other things. That's just where I am right now.

Hi folks!
Dear Crane,
I understand how you feel and if you read Mr. Tracy's blog on his website.You'll see that he is having the same approach to the material on the advanced levels. However, when you look at the system you will see several examples where you will see the obvious similarities of the techniques and approaches.
I'll write some of the simiarities on another post!
Thanks for the imput!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Wow, you sure like to take things personally. You'd think that a person with your movie star good looks wouldn't be so insecure about answering questions from some ugly bald guy like me.

All I asked was who you were training under. Then me and a couple of others got into a conversation about the philosophy of the merits of having multiple high ranks etc.

You act as though you were being attacked for some reason. Oh well.

Despite your name calling, I wanted to thank you for clearing up the issue I asked about.

Hi folks!
Dear Dan [Danjo]
Gee why would I take antyhing from you personally? I'll put that under "things that make you go "hummm..."
I've seen you on this board for over 6 years consistantly cause controversy in the veiled guise of "discussion". There are people on these boards who actually refer to said behavior as "pulling a danjo [as opposed to plucking a banjo [insert "deliverance" movie music here]]
As far as my looks go, yes, i'm an old fat guy, but I have 2 TV shows that have been on the air for over 20 years,So, thx for the compliment!
Insecure?nah, insecure is harping on folks for on a national martial arts message board for over half a decade.HINT!
You used to be alot more tolerant and actual fun to discuss things with,but over time you just got to be "internet karate cop" but,silly me, never see you at these major events that I attend.
Gee, at least when I look at the forest, i notice the trees.
Good luck to you.
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Joe...the day you stop being inquisitive will be the day you need CPR. I hope that day never comes soon.

I can't remember when you and I were chatting, I think it might have been when I bought my condo...you mentioned that I was lucky. And I said no...it wasn't luck...it was a lot of work. Now its my turn to bounce the same sentiment back atcha. You're not lucky. You've earned it the opportunity to teach at GoE and the like.

Personally, I'd be very interested in reading a discussion of Tracy Kenpo...if anyone is up for discussing it.

Hi folks!
Carol noticed I'm inquisitive.YAY!
However the real question is "If I did need CPR would you give me mouth to mouth"? Why do I think it's going to end like the joke about the guy who gets bit on the groin by the rattlesnake..."What's the Dr say?" "You're gonna die." ROFLMAO!!!
Dear Carol,
Thank you for your kind words, I truly appreciate them.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
Two techniques that I see a family related techniques orientation are the techniques "simitar ' & "slicing dragon"
When we look at these two i see similar attacks and different ranges of motion due to natural weapons used.
There are noted base "ideal" ways for the technique to be done. What are the similarities and differences you see as a tracy practitioner & can you see my point regarding how similar they both are?
Looking forward to hearing from any tracy people!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[Touch Of Death]

We train family related motion; however, all the techs are very closlely related anyway.
Sean

 

[J Ellis]

I have a question: How many people, either Parker, Tracy, or Kaju (not even sure if this applies to Kaju, but figured I'd ask anyways ) focus on the family groupings?

I don't know that we FOCUS on the family groupings, and we certainly don't discuss the analogy in any detail with beginning students, but relationships between the techniques is a primary factor in the way I develop lesson plans. I usually focus each training session on techniques related by attack, relative body position, and/or pattern of movement. Whether the students realize these are "family groups" or not, it helps them begin to see the relationships within the system from the very beginning and ultimately develop spontaneous responses.

In my limited experience, I've come to believe there is one basic pattern in Kenpo. Everything else is just an extension or application of it.

Joel

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't know that we FOCUS on the family groupings, and we certainly don't discuss the analogy in any detail with beginning students, but relationships between the techniques is a primary factor in the way I develop lesson plans. I usually focus each training session on techniques related by attack, relative body position, and/or pattern of movement. Whether the students realize these are "family groups" or not, it helps them begin to see the relationships within the system from the very beginning and ultimately develop spontaneous responses.

In my limited experience, I've come to believe there is one basic pattern in Kenpo. Everything else is just an extension or application of it.

Joel

...and a repetition of it.
sean

 

[Danjo]

Hi folks!
Dear Dan [Danjo]
Gee why would I take antyhing from you personally? I'll put that under "things that make you go "hummm..."
I've seen you on this board for over 6 years consistantly cause controversy in the veiled guise of "discussion". There are people on these boards who actually refer to said behavior as "pulling a danjo [as opposed to plucking a banjo [insert "deliverance" movie music here]]
As far as my looks go, yes, i'm an old fat guy, but I have 2 TV shows that have been on the air for over 20 years,So, thx for the compliment!
Insecure?nah, insecure is harping on folks for on a national martial arts message board for over half a decade.HINT!
You used to be alot more tolerant and actual fun to discuss things with,but over time you just got to be "internet karate cop" but,silly me, never see you at these major events that I attend.
Gee, at least when I look at the forest, i notice the trees.
Good luck to you.
KENPOJOE

Well, if it's the major events that I'm missing you at, I'll have to keep my eye open for you next time I'm reffing at the Internationals, US Open, Bob White's tourney or any of the other dozen or so events I go to. I didn't know you were there, or I would have been sure to say hello.

You ought to be proud of your public access TV shows for sure. Takes a lot of perseverance to keep those things going.

Glad that you and your buddies like to refer to my posts as "Danjos" (thanks for clearing up that you're not referring to one of your favorite scenes from the movie you mentioned) I won't get into what people refer to your posts as out of deferrence to your dozen or so 8th degree ranks in the various systems you inherited from dead guys etc.

Sorry I'm not fun like I used to be when I knew no better about who was who in the martial arts scene.

Oh well, I'm probably just jealous that I'm not as cool as you are.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, if it's the major events that I'm missing you at, I'll have to keep my eye open for you next time I'm reffing at the Internationals, US Open, Bob White's tourney or any of the other dozen or so events I go to. I didn't know you were there, or I would have been sure to say hello.

You ought to be proud of your public access TV shows for sure. Takes a lot of perseverance to keep those things going.

Glad that you and your buddies like to refer to my posts as "Danjos" (thanks for clearing up that you're not referring to one of your favorite scenes from the movie you mentioned) I won't get into what people refer to your posts as out of deferrence to your dozen or so 8th degree ranks in the various systems you inherited from dead guys etc.

Sorry I'm not fun like I used to be when I knew no better about who was who in the martial arts scene.

Oh well, I'm probably just jealous that I'm not as cool as you are.

I'm just going to throw this out there but, I'm almost positive none of this is related to Family Groupings. Do you want people asking you your rank, justification for that rank, and mental state of the teacher that gave you that rank, everytime you post? If not, then why do you do it to others?
Sean

 

[Danjo]

I'm just going to throw this out there but, I'm almost positive none of this is related to Family Groupings. Do you want people asking you your rank, justification for that rank, and mental state of the teacher that gave you that rank, everytime you post? If not, then why do you do it to others?
Sean

Well, I'm more than positive that it has nothing to do with family groupings, Sean.

As to the rest: When did I ask him or anyone else that anywhere in this thread?

I think I asked him who was teaching him Tracy Kenpo, which he answered along with some other choice comments.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi folks!
Two techniques that I see a family related techniques orientation are the techniques "simitar ' & "slicing dragon"
When we look at these two i see similar attacks and different ranges of motion due to natural weapons used.
There are noted base "ideal" ways for the technique to be done. What are the similarities and differences you see as a tracy practitioner & can you see my point regarding how similar they both are?
Looking forward to hearing from any tracy people!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Yes, these are two examples that I've noticed as well. They initiate the defense in a similar fashion, then finish in a different way. If you want to call that a "family" grouping I'd agree, tho as I said, we simply don't tend to discuss it that way from my experience.

Other examples of what you might consider a Family Grouping, if that's how you want to look at it: Windmill Guard, Dropping the Staff, Bending the Staff, Rising Kick, and a variation to the right side in Turning the Rod.