Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Do you actually believe the stuff you write?
Explaining Kata/Forms to Those Who Don't Do Them
- Thread starter Koshiki
- Start date
Do you actually believe the stuff you write?
ShotoNoob
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A number of the TMA schools in my area offer a 'black-belt' club. It's only a problem if one has the maturity of a child; OR, a ego that's out of bounds (hint, hint).
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Ja Gow, you fell off your sparring wagon here.... These TKD instructors are demonstrating exactly what is missing in all your students. Exactly.
Like the demo student you demolished, like the gifted girl student; like boxing brother are 'brainwashed' into using boxing principles in your class.... shouldn't throw stones when one lives in a glass house...
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Yep, recreational TKD, TMA, etc. is the most popular practice.... People are joining up to meet people & have fun.... be cool karate guys & gals.... playtime abounds.... Truth is, though, the class is serious TMA here....
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And guess what it's all about psychologically? EGO.
If you have put anyone's feet 'to the fire' we won't have noticed because we have no idea what you are talking about. In fact I've no idea what putting feet to the fires means.
Free sparring? theory? nope, still no idea. I think you are waffling and thinking you are sounding high minded and above everyone else. Sorry, that's a no from me.
Well Crane, I'm wondered the same thing, and am frankly at a loss. The following quote comes to mind:
http://www.biggbossfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/9-Plato.jpg
Now in all fairness, I've also posted some pretty foolish things here on MT over the years. But for the love of God, ad least I admit it!!!
If someone shows you this move (arm drag, single leg) and you like it, will you add it into your form?
Flying Crane
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Koshiki
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Well, it was nice while it lasted, all. Thanks for the many interesting viewpoints.
For my own part, no. I wouldn't add this particular move, because I would prefer not to go down with the other guy; this sort of takedown just doesn't mesh in anyway with the strategies and tactics of my style.
As for a more general, "would you add a move that you couldn't find in your forms?" my answer would still be no, most likely. Something as simple as an arm drag into a somewhat altered leg takedown can be found or worked into many of the traditional kata of my system, without altering the original form.
If there were truly no way to fit a certain technique or tactic into anything found within the forms of my system, but I felt that the technique was essential and meshed well with the overall methodology, that's something that might tempt me to create a new form and keep it as permanent part of the system. (assuming I was not myself, but rather someone with the influence to do that).
Thus far I have yet to find anything that both cannot be applied within the framework of traditional forms, that also meshes well with the overall style I practice. But then, as Karate kata, our forms are considerably less explicit than many of the CMA forms I've encountered or been shown, so I suppose there's more room for interpretation, making it more difficult to find a technique that doesn't, somewhere, fit into the several hundred moves found in one of the dozen or so basic kata we do.
I can see that, in a style with explicit motions in the forms, or with forms with set applications which are taught, it would make more sense to say, "hey, this is clearly not in our syllabus, but it works well, let's add it." And that's certainly valid, it's just different from my personal practice.
Also Kung Fu Wang, thanks for bringing us back. It was nice while it lasted!
For my own part, no. I wouldn't add this particular move, because I would prefer not to go down with the other guy; this sort of takedown just doesn't mesh in anyway with the strategies and tactics of my style.
As for a more general, "would you add a move that you couldn't find in your forms?" my answer would still be no, most likely. Something as simple as an arm drag into a somewhat altered leg takedown can be found or worked into many of the traditional kata of my system, without altering the original form.
If there were truly no way to fit a certain technique or tactic into anything found within the forms of my system, but I felt that the technique was essential and meshed well with the overall methodology, that's something that might tempt me to create a new form and keep it as permanent part of the system. (assuming I was not myself, but rather someone with the influence to do that).
Thus far I have yet to find anything that both cannot be applied within the framework of traditional forms, that also meshes well with the overall style I practice. But then, as Karate kata, our forms are considerably less explicit than many of the CMA forms I've encountered or been shown, so I suppose there's more room for interpretation, making it more difficult to find a technique that doesn't, somewhere, fit into the several hundred moves found in one of the dozen or so basic kata we do.
I can see that, in a style with explicit motions in the forms, or with forms with set applications which are taught, it would make more sense to say, "hey, this is clearly not in our syllabus, but it works well, let's add it." And that's certainly valid, it's just different from my personal practice.
Also Kung Fu Wang, thanks for bringing us back. It was nice while it lasted!
Why bother. Stuff like that is way more fun to practice on a partner!
Which brings us back to the whole question of why we do forms to begin with in TMAs and why aren't they used in competitve martial sports? I did know a good old wrestling coach named Mu Chang originally from Korea. He retired some years ago. He also taught a traditional martial art, Kuk Sool Won, which may have colored his training methods a little.
Anyway he did incorporate some series of wrestling moves into form-like drill sequences used for warm-ups, conditioning, and building muscle memory so that the combinations would flow quickly and naturally. An awful lot of good high school, and even some collegiate wrestlers came to him for extra training, so I guess there was some value in it.
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It's a problem when the students focus more on the color than the development of their skills as a martial artist. It's more of a problem when the school encourages that perspective. The only way that sparring video wouldn't be a horror is if the the students had some kind of mental development or physical disability.
I don't consider what they are doing sparring. Not even in the slightest. They are simply just accepting kicks without any efforts to counter, avoid, or block the kicks. The only thing that they will develop is the habit of fighting opponents in the same manner. If this is what my students are lacking then I'm glad that they lack it, and I'll make sure that I'll do all that I can to make sure they never gain that perspective.
They aren't brained washed, they are having difficulties with using techniques that are out of their comfort zone. They don't let a color of a belt to determine their level of achievement. When students try to chase and be like other students we stop that student and remind that student that his or her personal development is more important than "being as good as someone else" We constantly remind each other that it's all about our own personal development and not about beating someone. Schools that have belted systems have to be especially careful that students stay focus on personal development and not the belt.
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I wouldn't add it to my form because it doesn't fit with my fighting system which stresses the importance of not being on the ground. Things that are added to a form have to go with the concepts and foundation of the fighting system. There is no definite answer about adding or not adding a technique from one fighting system to another fighting system. It happens all the time but not at the expense of the current fighting system that serves as the foundation.
Totally agree.
If that's your only concern, the solution is simple. To go down with your opponent is only one way to end a "single leg". How to pick up your opponent's leading leg is one thing, how to take him down after that is something else. There are many other ways to end a "single leg" such as:
1. lift his leg over your shoulder to throw him backward.
2. lock his leg between your legs and press down on his upper leg to take him down.
3. use wheeling footwork, hold on his leg, pull his neck, spin him, and take him down.
4. sweep his standing leg.
5. hook his standing leg.
6. scoop his standing leg.
7. horse back kick his standing leg.
8. hand pull his standing leg.
9. ...
All those ending methods won't require you to go down with your opponent and you can still maintain your "mobility" as a stand up fighter.
Many years ago, I tried to add some WC moves into my long fist form. I didn't want to train my long fist forms and WC forms separately. It didn't work very well. IMO, the integration is much more than just A + B. I may have to modify B before I can integrate it into A.
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TSDTexan
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Some thoughts…. or where I am at (right now) with regard to what is Kata:
Kata is many things, to many people.
To me, I see many things (about Kata) as being true, and not mutually exclusive.
Kata is a massively distributed repository. I will restate a jewel that I have already got out there:
"Kata is a .zip file" (tm); with different and distinct rules for decompression for each.
Some kata are an entire fighting system within themselves, and scale when complemented with correctly related kata.
Some Kata contained all of what was needed for a fighter to protect themselves in a real fight.
The embusan does not reflect the direction of traveling movement in a real fight but has value for didactic purpose.
Every single movement of kata in authentic old school martial arts has a lesson to teach. Every movement has a real intended meaning. Perhaps even more than one.
Kata is a model or blueprint. It is both an ideal and a practical.
Kata does not have to be karate. Kata can be called another name. Or other Martial's arts movement drills can also be descriptively called kata even if it is prescriptively incorrect.
1. Kata trains the body, and the brain, the physical movements and non-movements (of those that would be used within a fight) at a deep neurological level. Done long enough the brain develops serious neurological pathways that significantly speed up complex movements.
For an example please watch:
The young boy started performing his cup stacking kata called “The Cycle” as in the cup stacking cycle, and in the beginning it took him between 120 to 150 seconds perform the task. (2 to 2 & 1/2 minutes)
After a number of years (and in about 3600 total hours), his practice of the routine had reduced the time down to 5 seconds.
Even blind folded.
There is some other amazing gems about the brain in Dr David Eagleman's series on the human brain. Stuff martial arts should know and inform their training methods.
Practicing the repeated kata allowed him to shave an incredible amount of time off the performance of the task.
And also move it from conscious effort to unconscious effort.
Which has enormous value in a martial art setting. Especially if you hardwire defensive actions into one’s involuntary response.
[You can do that you know.
You should do that you know.]
Your body will react to the threat before your conscious mind will have time to consider options.
-----
2.
We are living in an information (literacy) rich time. This has not always been the case.
How would you want to preserve and communicate something very important if you did not have a means of writing?
Human are social creatures who need to communicate. The greater the significance of a thought, the higher the need to transmit the thought. The idea of “how to” fight to preserve one’s family, one’s society and or one’s own life… is arguably one of the highest.
Illiteracy has always been a constant in human societies. There is no society without it.
This fact only increases scale and scope as we count backwards through the ages.
If you want to transmit information without pen and paper, or ink and brush… you have two choices. An oral tradition or a kinesiological tradition. {ideally one should use both}
This is not to say that the old masters were idiots, on the contrary they were incredibly brilliant. They succeeded in passing on a lot of information without pen and paper.
Ergo, easily remembered mental techniques called mnemonic tools, were developed back then for recording and transmitting knowledge.
In literate societies writing removes the mnemonic demand since information was transmitted in other ways.
However in societies in which literacy rare and uncommon song, dance and poetry were and are used as mnemonic tools to record and transmit stuff, especially important stuff.
Why?
Because these contain arranged patterns that is distinctive and contains both rhythms and systematic progressions, which are easily remembered and can be transmitted from one human to another relatively and has the ability for instant error correction in transmission.
Since war is one of the oldest traditions practiced by humanity it should come as no surprise that mnemonics were used by those who train (for fighting) to preserve and transmit combat tactics and strategies.
It was but one small step from dance to the development of kata.
In fact, many critics have {in ignorance} called kata nothing more “pretty dancing”.
Hence the reason why kata (prearranged drills) are found in most styles of fighting.
In addition to being a mnemonic tool that stores and transmits strategies
Kata is also a process that develops martial prowess.
In short… Kata makes you a better fighter by improving your skills, responses and thinking.
Kata is not fixed and it is not static.
Kata comes alive through the fighter who with their insight, creativity and pragmatism turns the practice of kata into a dynamic experience.
About mnemonics:
The acrostic is the most popularly used mnemonic. To make an Expression or Word mnemonic, the first letter of each item in a list is arranged to form a phrase or word. An example:
Almost every anatomy class has to remember the eight small bones in the wrist: Navicular, Lunate, Triquetrum, Pisiform, Multongular (Greater), Multongular (Lesser), Capitate, Hamate.
Never Lick Tilly's Popsicle, Mother Might Come Home.
The order of operations for math is Parentheses, Exponents, Multiply, Divide, Add, and Subtract = Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally.
Unlike an acrostic you can have a rhyming mnemonic without using the first letter of each word.
A commonly used rhyming oral mnemonic for the number of days in each month is:
30 days hath September, April, June, and November.
All the rest have 31
Except February alone
which has but four and twenty-four
and every four years one day more.
*For a physical law dealing with gasses, we created:
Charles' Law: For a constant volume, pressure is directly proportional to temperature.
The simple way to remember Chuck is if the tank's too hot, you're blown into muck.
Kata as a mnemonic teaches or helps retain the knowledge of when and where to apply specifically drilled & learned techniques. Kata gives strategic rationale, tactical method and coherence to motion.
An example would be “the when” of how to apply a grappling lock, or sweep or throw. Things that if just thrown out into a fight without rhyme or reason would not work, but the Kata teaches the set up. and the counter to a most likely counter in the same way a mnemonic device helps someone recall to conscious thought the "whys" which are made up of "when to" + "how tos" ..
Kata is not bunkai but bunkai is required to properly learn the meaning of kata.
Bunkai is not
&
As much as it is this:
&
That is to say... kata bunkai is not meaningless imagery and motion that we project upon with our own thoughts and ideas.
Not. Bunkai and Kata are telling a nmemonic story. Deep and rich as life death and war and peace.
Kata is many things, to many people.
To me, I see many things (about Kata) as being true, and not mutually exclusive.
Kata is a massively distributed repository. I will restate a jewel that I have already got out there:
"Kata is a .zip file" (tm); with different and distinct rules for decompression for each.
Some kata are an entire fighting system within themselves, and scale when complemented with correctly related kata.
Some Kata contained all of what was needed for a fighter to protect themselves in a real fight.
The embusan does not reflect the direction of traveling movement in a real fight but has value for didactic purpose.
Every single movement of kata in authentic old school martial arts has a lesson to teach. Every movement has a real intended meaning. Perhaps even more than one.
Kata is a model or blueprint. It is both an ideal and a practical.
Kata does not have to be karate. Kata can be called another name. Or other Martial's arts movement drills can also be descriptively called kata even if it is prescriptively incorrect.
1. Kata trains the body, and the brain, the physical movements and non-movements (of those that would be used within a fight) at a deep neurological level. Done long enough the brain develops serious neurological pathways that significantly speed up complex movements.
For an example please watch:
After a number of years (and in about 3600 total hours), his practice of the routine had reduced the time down to 5 seconds.
Even blind folded.
There is some other amazing gems about the brain in Dr David Eagleman's series on the human brain. Stuff martial arts should know and inform their training methods.
Practicing the repeated kata allowed him to shave an incredible amount of time off the performance of the task.
And also move it from conscious effort to unconscious effort.
Which has enormous value in a martial art setting. Especially if you hardwire defensive actions into one’s involuntary response.
[You can do that you know.
You should do that you know.]
Your body will react to the threat before your conscious mind will have time to consider options.
-----
2.
We are living in an information (literacy) rich time. This has not always been the case.
How would you want to preserve and communicate something very important if you did not have a means of writing?
Human are social creatures who need to communicate. The greater the significance of a thought, the higher the need to transmit the thought. The idea of “how to” fight to preserve one’s family, one’s society and or one’s own life… is arguably one of the highest.
Illiteracy has always been a constant in human societies. There is no society without it.
This fact only increases scale and scope as we count backwards through the ages.
If you want to transmit information without pen and paper, or ink and brush… you have two choices. An oral tradition or a kinesiological tradition. {ideally one should use both}
This is not to say that the old masters were idiots, on the contrary they were incredibly brilliant. They succeeded in passing on a lot of information without pen and paper.
Ergo, easily remembered mental techniques called mnemonic tools, were developed back then for recording and transmitting knowledge.
In literate societies writing removes the mnemonic demand since information was transmitted in other ways.
However in societies in which literacy rare and uncommon song, dance and poetry were and are used as mnemonic tools to record and transmit stuff, especially important stuff.
Why?
Because these contain arranged patterns that is distinctive and contains both rhythms and systematic progressions, which are easily remembered and can be transmitted from one human to another relatively and has the ability for instant error correction in transmission.
Since war is one of the oldest traditions practiced by humanity it should come as no surprise that mnemonics were used by those who train (for fighting) to preserve and transmit combat tactics and strategies.
It was but one small step from dance to the development of kata.
In fact, many critics have {in ignorance} called kata nothing more “pretty dancing”.
Hence the reason why kata (prearranged drills) are found in most styles of fighting.
In addition to being a mnemonic tool that stores and transmits strategies
Kata is also a process that develops martial prowess.
In short… Kata makes you a better fighter by improving your skills, responses and thinking.
Kata is not fixed and it is not static.
Kata comes alive through the fighter who with their insight, creativity and pragmatism turns the practice of kata into a dynamic experience.
About mnemonics:
The acrostic is the most popularly used mnemonic. To make an Expression or Word mnemonic, the first letter of each item in a list is arranged to form a phrase or word. An example:
Almost every anatomy class has to remember the eight small bones in the wrist: Navicular, Lunate, Triquetrum, Pisiform, Multongular (Greater), Multongular (Lesser), Capitate, Hamate.
Never Lick Tilly's Popsicle, Mother Might Come Home.
The order of operations for math is Parentheses, Exponents, Multiply, Divide, Add, and Subtract = Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally.
Unlike an acrostic you can have a rhyming mnemonic without using the first letter of each word.
A commonly used rhyming oral mnemonic for the number of days in each month is:
30 days hath September, April, June, and November.
All the rest have 31
Except February alone
which has but four and twenty-four
and every four years one day more.
*For a physical law dealing with gasses, we created:
Charles' Law: For a constant volume, pressure is directly proportional to temperature.
The simple way to remember Chuck is if the tank's too hot, you're blown into muck.
Kata as a mnemonic teaches or helps retain the knowledge of when and where to apply specifically drilled & learned techniques. Kata gives strategic rationale, tactical method and coherence to motion.
An example would be “the when” of how to apply a grappling lock, or sweep or throw. Things that if just thrown out into a fight without rhyme or reason would not work, but the Kata teaches the set up. and the counter to a most likely counter in the same way a mnemonic device helps someone recall to conscious thought the "whys" which are made up of "when to" + "how tos" ..
Kata is not bunkai but bunkai is required to properly learn the meaning of kata.
Bunkai is not
&
As much as it is this:
&
That is to say... kata bunkai is not meaningless imagery and motion that we project upon with our own thoughts and ideas.
Not. Bunkai and Kata are telling a nmemonic story. Deep and rich as life death and war and peace.
Last edited:
Kenpoguy123
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Forms are the same as shaddow boxing. Practicing your moves without a live partner. Of course in a fight you're not going to defend yourself like a form but it teaches you to put the moves together and work at differen angles
Uhhh, I'm sorry, I don't undestand the question. Nor the statement before it, actually. I'm just an old fool, do you mind running that by me again? I really like The Wolf's posts, I'd love to answer, but I'm confused.
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But many of those methods that you state are already in my fighting system. The question you asked was would I add the technique that was shown in the video. Once you change what was shown in the video then it no is the same technique that was shown in the video.
ShotoNoob
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Well according to some M.T. members; if they like what they (those students) are doing.... more power to them...
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And to rise above the 1-dimensional replies I often receive.... if one is so undisciplined mentally that a trophy-bobble is what you care about, then how much of a coaching crutch do you need in order to step up to TMA? Open question....
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Well they are sparring... on their level which is incompetent on your level.... What do you want me to say other than that... someone else here will advocate... "they are learning to get hit." Well...
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Yeah, then how come all these alternative M.T. posters here beat up on me.... when I agree...??? Word: Promotion. Same concept as awarding belts = accomplishment. Promote the business...
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EDIT: have to admit though, never thought of kata as an ink blot....
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ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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YOu should be sorry... good luck with that...
Are you joking or serious? Honestly, it's hard to tell. Even your choice of emojis is confusing.You do realize that your comments come across as so disjointed and random as to border on being virtually incoherent at times. Try re-reading your remarks from the perspective of those you are addressing. Better yet, have a friend read them and ask him or her if your meaning is clear.
I, for one, will stop tossing the snarky one-liners your way ...bada-boom!. I did that because I actually thought you were trolling. Now I suspect that maybe you are being sincere, but just not communicating in a way that some of us can decipher. One poster asked if English is your first language. Judging by your command of popular idioms, I'll bet it is. More likely, you get going on a topic and make mental leaps that are clear in your head but leave your audience behind. Slow down, bring them along with you. They might not agree, but at least everyone will be on the same page!
Oh, and drop the defensive facade of arrogance. People here at MT are mostly a pretty friendly and helpful bunch. In fact some are both highly educated and knowledgeable regarding their respective martial arts. I'd bet that if you try to communicate a little more clearly and offer some clarification when people have questions, you might get a more positive reception.
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YOu should be sorry... good luck with that...
Oh, good, that's somewhat of a relief as I really am sorry that I don't understand. I see that as a good sign, sort of like hitting one for one (for me) so far. (Yay!)
Having been a fair investigator back in the day, I figured I'd help myself out so I Googled "\".
Got this - Backslash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But that didn't really help me. So I then Googled that panda thingy. Got this - Urban Dictionary: confused panda
I wasn't sure if that reflected on your post or mine, but since I don't really understand your post, I figure it must be mine.
Then I Googled that other symbol, that emoticon thingy. I got this -
Google:
I'm not really sure what all that means. Or if it refers to you or me. My guess would be me as I really am confused and you don't seem to be at all.
Then I looked at your post itself -
"\
YOu should be sorry... good luck with that...
That made me feel a whole lot better. I am confused, truly. And I always appreciate wishes of luck from a fellow Martial Artist. (Rock on, bro.)
But uh, good luck with what?
If one is so undisciplined mentally that one cannot string a coherent sentence together so that people can understand what you mean I'm surprised you even get 'one dimensional' replies.
What is a 'trophy bobble'? a bobble here is usually an elastic band used to tie hair up.
'coaching crutch needed to step up to TMA' absolutely no idea what that means.
You may think you are far above us in intellect and martial arts skills but sadly you are the only one that thinks this, we don't know how or what to answer you simply because we cannot read what you write. It really is as simple as that. It's English Captain but not as we know it.
