Explaining Kata/Forms to Those Who Don't Do Them

[JowGaWolf]

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How do you know it's not you misunderstanding.... aren't these moves you speak of symbolic of applied tactics & martial principles...???


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Clearly a possibility... other explanations abound about why kata / kata technique is imperfect... People are flawed is the broad reason...


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To train & master a discipline, we have to come to some conclusion about what we are doing....

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COMPLETELY WRONG IN PRINCIPLE.... We don't make up science... we prove it, prove it's principles, then apply it... Otherwise, it becomes a hippie, feel good fest.... and here's the result

Certain Martial Talk heavies are convinced I'm the Star in the YT video....
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EDIT: My favorite editorial comment is that the female black-belt standing in the center watching.... is hoping,,, NO PRAYING, I won't ask for her phone number after class...

About the video. Bad technique. I played the video at a slower speed and it becomes clear that he hasn't learn how to connect the energy from the body to the backhand. You can actually see the body mechanics of it fall apart.

 

[Koshiki]

I fully appreciate that the point of this thread is for those of us that do emphasize kata/forms in our training to share the why behind that emphasis. But honestly, that emphasis will differ from art to art, culture to culture. Similarly, concepts such as Kime from Japanese TMA may have analogous concepts in other cultures TMA, or they may not... I can only conclude that there are many paths and many goals in the martial arts. It is not for me to judge others by my yard (meter?) stick.

That's exactly what I was originally hoping for. Usually, online threads seem to deal with Yes/No, Good/Bad, Useful/Useless, type dichotomies.

Conversations in real life on forms seem to be much more enlightening, but it's pretty rare to get practitioners from twelve distinct traditions together to discuss this stuff.

I thought it would be really interesting to here, say, how differently someone like me with a mutilated USA/Korean/Japanese/Okinawan Karate might view kata when compared to a Goju practitioner, when compared to a Win Tsun practitioner, when compared to well, I don't know if there are any Silat guys here, but you get the idea.

I wasn't hoping for an authoritative thread on THIS IS HOW YOU KATA, but rather an array of detailed explanations of why various of us value the general class of training typified by forms, hopefully unfettered by having to step over comments about how useless forms are. So far, I think we're staying on track quite well, considering the tendencies of online group conversation!

 

[lklawson]

What does that mean?

It's a business, accounting, and inventory term. First In, First Out. :rofl:

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I'll try to explain it. The full move is to 1st. do the double spearhand downward, in the same manner that the guy in the video did. 2nd. Raise both arms creating a circle until your hands meet above your head. Similar to the way the arms move when doing jumping jacks.

Purpose of the move is to prevent a shoot or tackle aimed no higher than he waist and no lower than the knees. The 3rd part which is related to the stance isn't added in the form. I think it was left out intentionally. When the technique is done correctly it will lock both of your arms behind your back in a very painful manner. When the instructor showed me it felt like both of my shoulders were about to pop out of my sockets. I think one of my shoulders would have been dislocated if he had actually locked the technique and did it with force.

To give you an ideal of how it feels. Bend over forward 90 degrees at the waist. Do a reverse dumbell fly palms facing down (without the weight.) With the arms extended, pull your arms back as far as you can, when you reach your limit have someone come and continue to pull your arms back until your hands are touching.

The more energy that the person puts into the shoot the more damage the technique will cause.

Thanks. I understand now what you were referring to.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

FIRST EXAMPLE: A lot of kata critics, as well a certain TMA practitioners equate kata to 'dance.' IOW, kata practitioners move around in a choreographed fashion.... dancers move around in a coordinated, choreographed manner... Walla, kata is dancing really....
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IN effect, completely wrong. Dance is a physical recreational exercise, which objectives are physical recreation & social interacton yielding personal enjoyment.

At least one person in this thread has said that kata performs this function for him; a fun and productive way to get exercise.

Kata has a physical exercise component. Kata, however, goes beyond memorizing and then mixing up some dance steps.... kata is really about developing unity between one's whole body & mind, where mental discipline exacts precise control over all physical actions.... Kata's applied objective is about developing the strength of the physical body & mind, the melding them together to create power which power can them be expressed against an assailant to protect oneself or another....
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Dance is like fun; kata is work, real hard work..... Can dancers work hard... sure.... The level of mental intensity devoted & generated in kata is far above the relaxing end product of dance... even if we are speaking of the meditative quality of that mental work... .compared to basically normal thinking while dancing....

Umm... What? I've found that dancers make EXCELLENT martial artists. They are not afraid of hard work, are used to getting injured during training, know how to work through or when to let off and heal, have an excellent sense of balance, distance, and timing, and generally have a very solid flow to their body movements. Years ago, one researcher told me that it was considered a truism in the Italian Renaissance that if a man couldn't dance, he couldn't fight (fence).

SECOND EXAMPLE: Boxers and again some martial artists compare shadow boxing to kata... equate the two.... Again, superficially share outward similar physical expression.... Again, in effect, completely wrong... Shadowboxing has the boxer, whomever, randomly throwing physical techniques in succession @ varying paces. It is a purely physical activity where the mind is just repeating physical moves in the form of techniques and random combos.... etc... Sure, the colloquial muscle memory is developed along with physical strength and technique....Compared with mental activity in kata; however, Shadowboxing is practically mindless...

Umm... what? I'm not sure where you learned shadowboxing. It's a comparatively simple training tool, no doubt. But it's not intended to be "random" per se and it's not supposed to be "mindless."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

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How do you know it's not you misunderstanding.... aren't these moves you speak of symbolic of applied tactics & martial principles...???

Because all of those possibilities require different physical and bio-mechanical structure. You don't hold and move your body the same way to do a crossed-arm double high block as you do to perform a cross-lapel choke. That's the point. You can't apply "symbolic applied tactics & martial principles" from different body structures. Each has a limited, and often fairly specific, set of circumstances in which to apply. You don't Cavalry charge entrenched cannonry.

To train & master a discipline, we have to come to some conclusion about what we are doing....

What? I don't think you know what you are replying to here. Kung Fu Wang asked if boxing style "head dodging" (which he believes doesn't appear to be in kata) should be added to kata. I opined that maybe it doesn't have to be. Your response has nothing to do with that dialog. I don't want to be a jerk about this, but, dude, don't just argue to argue.

COMPLETELY WRONG IN PRINCIPLE....

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Which is why there's such a broad consensus among practitioners as to the purpose of kata. Again, are you arguing just to argue? Did you lose track of what the dialog was? Are you just making assumptions about my commentary based on what you expect to see instead of the context of the dialog?

I don't know what happened here, but it's very frustrating to have someone arguing a position which I didn't take.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

At least one person in this thread has said that kata performs this function for him; a fun and productive way to get exercise.

Umm... What? I've found that dancers make EXCELLENT martial artists. They are not afraid of hard work, are used to getting injured during training, know how to work through or when to let off and heal, have an excellent sense of balance, distance, and timing, and generally have a very solid flow to their body movements. Years ago, one researcher told me that it was considered a truism in the Italian Renaissance that if a man couldn't dance, he couldn't fight (fence).

Umm... what? I'm not sure where you learned shadowboxing. It's a comparatively simple training tool, no doubt. But it's not intended to be "random" per se and it's not supposed to be "mindless."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My own experience has been that dancers struggle with martial arts. While the points you cite above are true, they often have difficulty with grounding and root because they train to be light and to float. The body connection is different, they struggle with full body connection in a martial methodology. Of course different types of dance backgrounds may change this, one's mileage may vary.

 

[lklawson]

Of course different types of dance backgrounds may change this, one's mileage may vary.

As well as different martial arts. Bowie knife, for instance, "light and floating" footwork is absolutely wonderful.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

It's a business, accounting, and inventory term. First In, First Out. :rofl:

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ah thank you, the meaning of drop bear's post is still as clear as mud though! Doesn't have any bearing on what I wrote originally.

 

[Flying Crane]

As well as different martial arts. Bowie knife, for instance, "light and floating" footwork is absolutely wonderful.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Funny too, my main interaction with dancers in martial arts was in capoeira. It ain't dance, even tho some people want to believe it is, or want to focus on the "dance-like" aspects of it. And even so, the dancers struggled.

 

[lklawson]

Ah thank you, the meaning of drop bear's post is still as clear as mud though! Doesn't have any bearing on what I wrote originally.

Hey. I'm a man. ...studying Western Civ martial arts. Did you really expect me to make any sense?



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[geezer]

Funny too, my main interaction with dancers in martial arts was in capoeira. It ain't dance, even tho some people want to believe it is, or want to focus on the "dance-like" aspects of it. And even so, the dancers struggled.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of dancers were they? I'm guessing not the urban street dancer/breakdancer variety. Seems like that particular kind of athleticism might be helpful in capoeira.

 

[Flying Crane]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of dancers were they? I'm guessing not the urban street dancer/breakdancer variety. Seems like that particular kind of athleticism might be helpful in capoeira.

Typically they were modern dancers with a background in ballet, jazz, modern, that kind of thing. Capoeira has a lot of spin kicks, spinning crescents and such. When the dancers would do those, it was obvious. They would rise up on their toes and pirouette. There was no grounding, no digging in and loading up and uncoiling to unleash destructive power. It was just spinning with a leg outstretched, just like in a dance performance. When they would ginga, the only way I could describe it is "dainty", floating along mechanically. There was no loose, strong, natural movement, nothing organic or spontaneous about it.

As far as street dancer/hip hop/break dancers, well legend has it that break dancing developed in NY City with influence from capoeira. But it's still a different mindset with the movement, and that affects the "quality" of the movement. A dancer mimicking capoeira movement is easy to spot and recognizable as poor capoeira.

 

[Tez3]

Hey. I'm a man. ...studying Western Civ martial arts. Did you really expect me to make any sense?



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ah but you told me what that odd word drop bear used meant, it's up to him to explain what he meant by it!

 

[Buka]

A guy is in the dojo doing his Kata. SUDDENLY - there's two flashes of bright light and two people, also doing Kata, appear. One guy is from the past doing the form as it originated, the other guy is from the future doing the form as it's done hundreds of years from now.

It's a tense situation.

 

[ShotoNoob]

About the video. Bad technique. I played the video at a slower speed and it becomes clear that he hasn't learn how to connect the energy from the body to the backhand. You can actually see the body mechanics of it fall apart.

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I came in post - video... so I should take a look.... I convinced that you examine & adjust or advise... So +1 for Ja Gow.

 

[ShotoNoob]

At least one person in this thread has said that kata performs this function for him; a fun and productive way to get exercise.

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One can say whatever they want... Doesn't make them competent... or their viewpoint valid for TMA.

Umm... What? I've found that dancers make EXCELLENT martial artists. They are not afraid of hard work, are used to getting injured during training, know how to work through or when to let off and heal, have an excellent sense of balance, distance, and timing, and generally have a very solid flow to their body movements. Years ago, one researcher told me that it was considered a truism in the Italian Renaissance that if a man couldn't dance, he couldn't fight (fence).

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Well...socially I have nothing to add... kinda like saying good athlete's make good martial artists....

Umm... what? I'm not sure where you learned shadowboxing. It's a comparatively simple training tool, no doubt. But it's not intended to be "random" per se and it's not supposed to be "mindless."

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Sure, you've properly qualified my statement.... But other than co-coinciding with popular views, I seek to better define kata va. sports methodology.... The aegis in which I have witnessed or observed 'shadowboxing' performed or described.... the elements you speak of are quite limited....
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But by all means, shadow box away..... dance away.... we have the kickboxer & boxer type stylists @ our dojo who kick & punch away.... even pull the standard to clever sport fighting gambits on you (me).... We have one senior-belt who is an aggressive kickboxer and rolls over most all of the student population & some black-belts as well.... Nonetheless, It's not Traditional karate or TMA....
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Please refer to my BAckfist Miss YT vid.... He claims he has always broken the boards... and there is a vid of him breaking 4 boards. In the back fist miss, vid, I see only poor 'dance' or 'shadowboxing' coordination.... & zero TMA.
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So this TKD black-belt practitioner can make all the same, personally qualifying statement as you... and can have similar objectives..... but he's not demonstrating TMA....
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The school is full of students many of which have advanced to Black-belt.... I hazard the far majority wouldn't make it out of Matt Breyer's BJJ Beginner class. Standards?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Which is why there's such a broad consensus among practitioners as to the purpose of kata. Again, are you arguing just to argue? Did you lose track of what the dialog was? Are you just making assumptions about my commentary based on what you expect to see instead of the context of the dialog?

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I'm not following this.... so just let me add...

At least one person in this thread has said that kata performs this function for him; a fun and productive way to get exercise.

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On the dance & shadowboxing... I'd like to add I don't have a problem with TMA student practicing or believing in these within the context of a commercial setting.... Customers should have some flexibility for their personal tastes and & opinions, as well as their personal journey in training.... The danger is you end up a TMA, TKD Black-belt who can perform (non-perform) like the Star in my video....

I don't know what happened here, but it's very frustrating to have someone arguing a position which I didn't take.

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Again... I'm not following... peace...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Judging by whoever felt the need to add punches before turns if they weren't there already, you're turning to face the next of ten to twelve, patiently waiting opponents....

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Traditional karate kata is a solo exercise... So we speculate as the what the working objectives are... here, is it multiple opponents? Does kata present 'passive' opponents; like we see in so many formal TMA demonstrations?
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I was never taught that kata, forms, poomse, whatever was constructed with imaginary opponents in mind or as a formal part of the exercise.... The first I heard of the 'multiple oppponent' theory was from martial art board posters typically trying to understand or explain how kata, etc. relates to or trains for actual fighting...

I do not necessarily think it is wrong to teach that the directional turns in kata are to face a new opponent (begin a new sequence of defense and attack), but it's just the beginning.

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This is a working objective one can infer is incorporated in kata. I don't believe the concept is integral to the competency of kata training.... and have never been instructed or read in a TMA manual that it is.....

I have found it difficult to absorb very technical explanations when I am just beginning to learn; a simple basic explanation will suffice whilst I start to peel the onion of that particular kata. Turns are so much more than just an imaginary facing of a new opponent, but you have to get to the point where you can see that first somehow.

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The kata / TMA problem statement....

This particular problem, in my limited understanding, is that far too many instructors began teaching well before they had advanced beyond a basic and rudimentary understanding of kata themselves, so they had little to pass on.

It is not so much that what they teach about kata is wrong; it is that it is incomplete, because they have breadth but not depth. Everyone is in a hurry to get teaching and become a 'sensei' or 'master' and start earning a living or passing on what they think they know.

I assist in teaching. By that I mean I show basics of the first few kata to kids, under the supervision of my sensei. I work on feet position, hands, turns, balance and breathing with them. I do not teach them that a kamei can be used as an armbar tie-up, for example. It's just a kamei for now. And I also have much to learn, so even though I know more than the beginners, I still don't know much.

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Eminentlyl sensible, "Itsou."

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hmmm. Some interesting ideas being expressed. I wonder how close Shotonoob's views on kata are to Bill Mattock's? They seem to track pretty closely. I've already expressed my view regarding it's value as one of four components of the specific TMA I train (WC) which are 1. form, 2. two-man drills (lat sau) 3. sticking hands (chi-sau) and 4. sparring (nuk-sau/guo-sau). To develop completely in this art you need to balance all four areas.

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I don't see any substantive difference in overall principle.... I've made plain how I put the emphasis in kata...

Shoto

, my only question is whether or not your definition of a TMA isn't rather narrow, and perhaps based more specifically on your understanding of certain Okinawan and Japanese traditions? After all, TMA in general (Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Southeast Asian, Filipino, Malaysian, Indonesian, Indian, Nepali, Tibetan, Mongolian, etc., and of course. European, and others?...) are extremely diverse. I confess ignorance here, but from what I have encountered, it is unwise to make hard and fast assumptions about anything, including the function and relative importance of kata/forms ...assuming the the art even uses forms at all.

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Excellent question... though you go a bit overboard in the end... TMA is defined by universal principles.... Sport or applied fighting methods have a different / more limited set of universal principles... I view the sport methods (boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, kickboxing such as in "Caroline from Germany's YT Vid) as a subset of TMA principles, mainly focusing on the physical dimension, athletics....
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The real problem, as Bill Mattocks has expressly stated, is the everyone is learning, and moreover, everyone has aptitudes and as "Peace Favor Your Sword" feels, personal preferences//// So in actual application by the individual, we are going to see a very wide range of interpretations & usages of and for TMA training.... Zack's perspective captures this reality very well, IMO.
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OTOH, as I have premised, there are standards for any discipline. Otherwise... we end up with Black-belts re the Backfist Miss YT VID... and precisely what all the SD heavies point out in their marketing programs about what is fault in modern TMA training...

I fully appreciate that the point of this thread is for those of us that do emphasize kata/forms in our training to share the why behind that emphasis. But honestly, that emphasis will differ from art to art, culture to culture. Similarly, concepts such as Kime from Japanese TMA may have analogous concepts in other cultures TMA, or they may not... I can only conclude that there are many paths and many goals in the martial arts. It is not for me to judge others by my yard (meter?) stick.

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Again, there are universal standards in TMA. Universal standards among any discipline.
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The KIME example is a very good illustration of the subjectivity of these issues... We can say for forum purposes we want to be broad minded, and accepting of other's views... but this must still be limited to standards... Otherwise again... we don't have a discipline; we have something we 'think' is good for us.... something we feel 'good' about.... not the way to approach a discipline...