Execution Put On Hold
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Ray said:
Thats what amazes me. If they do change, you'd think that they'd see their life in a different way. If these programs are having a positive effect, they should see it. Granted, when they get out, the majority of the time, they'll end up back in, but if they saw themselves as a changed person so to speak, one would think that they would do something to avoid being pulled back into a criminal life.
Of course, anytime one has a record, its going to make it hard to find work, but while they may not find that 6 figure job, they could find something other than going back to a criminal life.
Mike
Kenpoist
Green Belt
MJS said:
No, I don't want to see an innocent person sent to death, but we have to have faith in our legal sysytem. It is far from perfect, but better than most countries. If judges were not ruling based on their personal and political beliefs and started applying the law as it is written with some consistancy, crime might improve somewhat. Unfortunately ist is a complex issue ranging from Parole and Probation to overcrowded prisons to so called "rehabilitation" for sex offenders. Now that the Supreme Court is swinging back to the right, things may start to improve.
I am reminded of the recent lethal injection issue in California:young girl (20 years ago) was brutilized and murdered (ran over her with a truck) and now the doctor's don't want to give him a dose of the "juice" because it might be "painful". Well too damn bad - maybe they should have thought about that before they comitted the crime. Lethal Injection is too good for these people.
Kenpoist said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the death penalty. You won't see me outside the prison protesting. I agree that we need to have faith in the system, but, and maybe it because I'm not a lawyer, judge, etc., but I just can't believe that these guys can be found 100% guilty and yet they're allowed appeal after appeal after appeal. Michael Ross was executed in CT. last year. He sat on death row for many years, everyone fully knowing that he was guilty of what he did. Why did it take so long?
Painful. I'll never understand those people that say those things. The pain that that young girl endured was, I'm sure, 100 times greater than a quick injection will ever be.
Mike
michaeledward
Grandmaster
I do not want to have 'faith' in our criminal justice system. That is no place for 'belief'. I would like very much to have a reasoned position on crime and punishment. The standard of guilt in criminal cases is 'Beyond a Reasonable Doubt'. There is no room for faith there.
To assume that judges are not interpreting the law as written speaks of a personal bias. Laws are written intentionally vague, and should be. Judges should be able to draw on their vast experience to determine an appropriate sentence for a specific situation. Mandatory sentence rules, while popular with voters often restrict the criminal justice system in unreasonable ways.
What percentage of the United States incarcerated population are locked up for non-violent offenses? A Massachusetts county jail currently has 600 inmates more than it was designed to handle. When the county tried to shift some of those inmates to available space in a State prison, they were rebuffed. Overcrowding of prisons makes a dangerous environment for all, including the law enforcement officers who staff the facilities.
Is the Criminal Justice system about punishment, or rehabilitation, or vengence? Has the focus on any one of these outcomes come at a cost to the other outcomes - recidivism?
To assume that judges are not interpreting the law as written speaks of a personal bias. Laws are written intentionally vague, and should be. Judges should be able to draw on their vast experience to determine an appropriate sentence for a specific situation. Mandatory sentence rules, while popular with voters often restrict the criminal justice system in unreasonable ways.
What percentage of the United States incarcerated population are locked up for non-violent offenses? A Massachusetts county jail currently has 600 inmates more than it was designed to handle. When the county tried to shift some of those inmates to available space in a State prison, they were rebuffed. Overcrowding of prisons makes a dangerous environment for all, including the law enforcement officers who staff the facilities.
Is the Criminal Justice system about punishment, or rehabilitation, or vengence? Has the focus on any one of these outcomes come at a cost to the other outcomes - recidivism?
Kenpoist
Green Belt
michaeledward said:
The problem is that your judges (New England) are not drawing on their vast experience to make rational legal decisions in the best interest of the people (i.e. the Vermont Judge who gave the child rapist a month of rehabilitation/counseling). We need to have a set standard across the board and stick to it. In the Federal system they call it "Federal Sentencing Guidlines".
You may be able to rehabilitate a select few (sexual predators not being among them), but by in large most first time offenders will re-commit within a year after they get out. If sentences were a little more strict and prisons were not "country clubs", there might be more of an incentive to not commit crime. We need hard labor/ work camps/ limited exercise/ smaller cells etc... It should be the worst setup imaginable.
Kenpoist said:
Amen! Perhaps spending 23 of the 24hrs of the day in your cell would be a deterant as well. The inmates in the facility where I worked received 4 hrs of recreation time on the 4-12 shift. 4 hrs to watch tv, use the phone, shower, play games in the dayrooms, as well as participate in the outdoor/indoor rec. programs. 3 squares a day, a roof over their head and 4 hrs of rec....what more can you need for committing a violent crime?
Mike
michaeledward
Grandmaster
MJS said:
Would all those willing to step up to this grand and luxurious living please step forward?
Anyone at all?
Come on' it's only the Connecticut State Pennitentiary .... who wouldn't want 'Four Hours of Recreation Time".
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Kenpoist said:
Arguing from the Specific to the General ... there are a bunch of problems with that. But, if you are going to regurgitate Bill O'Reilly's arguments, I suppose I know what I should expect.
Federal Sentencing Guidelines apply to Federal Cases ... which of course is not what was being prosecuted in Vermont ... But don't let facts confuse you.
I do not believe that prisons should be the 'worst setup imaginable' .... what better way to create criminals ... and make them more violent and more dangerous.
Lock 'em up forever ... convicted once, locked up forever. Got it.
Real charitable of you.
Kenpoist
Green Belt
michaeledward said:
Spend a few nights out in the street dealing with pimps, drug addicts, child rapists and the like "the cess pool of life" and than come talk to me about being "charitable".
The Federal Sentencing Guidlines reference was made as it relates to having some set standards in the court system - not for the Vermont Case.
Why don't we have it your way and just let the criminals have free reign in socierty - wouldn't want to offend anyone. San Francisco is a prime example of a liberal legal system - It's working out real well - Isn't IT?
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Kenpoist said:
I'm sorry, who is arguing to allow criminals to have free reign?
Kenpoist, I'm not sure if you know how much I admire you for keeping the streets safe. There is no way in Hades I could do what you do, not physically, not mentally.
But as a New Englander, I want what works in New England with New England criminals. Because, those criminals come out of jail and become New Englanders again. I have to live with the results of those convicts returning to society, so I want is believed to be the best for New England.
Source: 2003 FBI uniform crime report. When looking at the overall per capita crime rate, there is no other 6 state region that is as low as New England in terms of overall per capita crime. The Northern New England states are all in the bottom five of the country.
Our largest city is Boston. Lowest Per Capita murder rate of ANY major American city. National average is 5.7 muders per 100,000. Boston is around 2.8 per 100.000 - half the average.
Boston's per capita murder rate is tied with the Greater Duluth area.
Expand "Boston" to mean the Boston Metro area, and the murder rate drops to 2.3 per 100,000. Your favorite state to pick on...Vermont...1.8 per 100,000 statewide.
Essex County, is home to about 750,000 people including me. This is hardly the boon docks. Yet, the per capita murder rate is 1.5 per 100,000...almost one-quarter of the national average.
Is it our liberalism? You and I both know that per capita crime rates are low in some blue states and higher in others, much like they are lower in some red states and higher in others.
But there is more to the New England than our stance on the death penalty. We have values here. We value each other. New England has the lowest divorce rate of any other region in the country. The Divorce rate in Massachusetts is HALF the national average...at about 26%. The divorce rate in Texas is 150% of the national average, at about 76% (Source: Boston Globe 10/24/04)
We have the highest number of bachelor's degrees and graduate degrees per capita than any other region in the country. (Source: National Science Foundation)
New England is liberal, allright. That same liberalism has given us a desire to seek out education for ourselves and our children. What some people dismiss as bleeding hearts, we see as a society that actually cares for one another.
Bash New England all you want, but those liberal values make us what we are...including too smart and too caring to hurt our neighbors to begin with.
I prefer prevention over punishment.
Respectfully,
Carol
But as a New Englander, I want what works in New England with New England criminals. Because, those criminals come out of jail and become New Englanders again. I have to live with the results of those convicts returning to society, so I want is believed to be the best for New England.
Source: 2003 FBI uniform crime report. When looking at the overall per capita crime rate, there is no other 6 state region that is as low as New England in terms of overall per capita crime. The Northern New England states are all in the bottom five of the country.
Our largest city is Boston. Lowest Per Capita murder rate of ANY major American city. National average is 5.7 muders per 100,000. Boston is around 2.8 per 100.000 - half the average.
Boston's per capita murder rate is tied with the Greater Duluth area.
Expand "Boston" to mean the Boston Metro area, and the murder rate drops to 2.3 per 100,000. Your favorite state to pick on...Vermont...1.8 per 100,000 statewide.
Essex County, is home to about 750,000 people including me. This is hardly the boon docks. Yet, the per capita murder rate is 1.5 per 100,000...almost one-quarter of the national average.
Is it our liberalism? You and I both know that per capita crime rates are low in some blue states and higher in others, much like they are lower in some red states and higher in others.
But there is more to the New England than our stance on the death penalty. We have values here. We value each other. New England has the lowest divorce rate of any other region in the country. The Divorce rate in Massachusetts is HALF the national average...at about 26%. The divorce rate in Texas is 150% of the national average, at about 76% (Source: Boston Globe 10/24/04)
We have the highest number of bachelor's degrees and graduate degrees per capita than any other region in the country. (Source: National Science Foundation)
New England is liberal, allright. That same liberalism has given us a desire to seek out education for ourselves and our children. What some people dismiss as bleeding hearts, we see as a society that actually cares for one another.
Bash New England all you want, but those liberal values make us what we are...including too smart and too caring to hurt our neighbors to begin with.
I prefer prevention over punishment.
Respectfully,
Carol
Kenpoist
Green Belt
lady_kaur said:
Don't get me wrong, I like New England, having lived in Maine. Education in New England is among the best in the country.
The statistics don't take into account the culture and philosophy of the region and other factor's.
- New England idoes not have the Gun culture of other regions (guns=more violent crime)
- It is much colder in New England. That keeps alot of the perps off the streets and out of harms way.
- Not the same diverse culutural background as other major citites.
- Less populated region (outside of Mass)
Having been a cop in one of the South's most dangerous cities - I can attest to many of these differences.
