This could very well be due to the fact that the minority to non minority ratio isn't equal.
To Execute Or Not
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
This could very well be due to the fact that the minority to non minority ratio isn't equal.
StrongFighter
Green Belt
That picture is funny but seriously, there are people in this world who commit murder and wants to keep on living, roaming the earth.
If they go to prison, to these demented murderers, it is so what ? They have all day to figure out how to overpower guards and escape only to murder again. It happens all the time. Murderers are insane.
You hear on the TV news " Clifford James III of 555 Madison Street just got out of prison two weeks ago " then they zoom on a body bag being carried out of the victim's house then the cameraman goes on to say " He has a lengthy prison record and is currently wanted in five states. "
The next time police catch Clifford. He is sentenced to be electrocuted.
It is of little consolation to the families that he killed the second time around when he should have been electrocuted the first time around and saved that family heartbroken grief.
The bible also sas that satan is the father of lies, a murderer from the beginning or something along those lines ?
Thank you, allow me to amend my statement. Please insert "higher percentage" for "far more".
The studies showing the racial bias are real, vetted, peer-reviewed, and have caused several state governors to declare a moratorium on the death penalty in their states for now. One can play silly buggers with numbers all day - it's really pretty clearly factual that there is a racial bias in the application of the death penalty.
If the death penalty is applied equitably, I have certainly have no problem with it. I hold no love for murderers, and I believe I have said elsewhere that in my humble opinion, drug dealers should be sentenced to death as well.
I'm all for killing 'em. I am also in favor of our nation being decent, honest, and applying the death penalty equitably. It's our law, and frankly, I question people who are not in favor of our own Constitution - they love it when they like what it says, and get mad when it says something they don't care to hear.
I'm sorry, I think I might be confusing something. I was talking about the number of minorities vs non that are actually in prison, not ones that are on death row.
As far as whether or not race plays a part in who is executed more, minorities/non, I don't want to comment on that until I saw some stats.
I too, am in favor of it. As I said, if there is no doubt that someone is guilty of the crime, and death is the punishment that fits the crime, then by all means, get it over with. Screw all these appeals...strap 'em in, and pull the switch or stick the needle in them and get it done.
On the other hand, as its been pointed out, you have people who may be killed that didnt do the crime. This is where there is some flaw in the system somewhere. That is what needs to be fixed.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Post up these studies proving "racial bias" please.
Im interested in seeing where they claim the bias originates....
And as there hasnt been a SC ruling on the Constitutionality of the death penalty, the opinion of its current Constitutionality is simply that....
Im interested in seeing where they claim the bias originates....
And as there hasnt been a SC ruling on the Constitutionality of the death penalty, the opinion of its current Constitutionality is simply that....
Archangel M
Senior Master
I think that there needs to be some simple guidelines made.
Caught "red handed"..3 eyewitnesses, camera footage, forensic evidence and a confession? Straight to the chair.
Same case with some legal process error? Limited appeals...
A case entirely on circumstantial evidence? let the appeals begin.
Granted the "real world" isnt as simple as that, but some simple rules based on the evidence presented at trial isnt terribly difficult.
Caught "red handed"..3 eyewitnesses, camera footage, forensic evidence and a confession? Straight to the chair.
Same case with some legal process error? Limited appeals...
A case entirely on circumstantial evidence? let the appeals begin.
Granted the "real world" isnt as simple as that, but some simple rules based on the evidence presented at trial isnt terribly difficult.
StrongFighter
Green Belt
Bill I agree, drug dealers selling crack and people dying of heart attacks and they are in comas with complete and irreversible brain damage on life support.
What is selling booze & flavored drinks, vicodin mixed with sleeping pills to underage girls for the purpose of " getting laid " in his twisted mind and she later dies of an overdose ?
What about that thin but talented teenage football player who is introduced to the world of heavily armed and dangerous muscular steroid dealers ?
It needs to be viewed the same as someone who floors his vechile into somebody or the lady who poisons her husband for financial gain and runs off with her lover.
Murder is murder, no matter how you cut it. If someone murders then he or she needs to die.
The world would have been a lot safer if commonsense was applied and put into action more frequently.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
I'm not a fan of the death penalty, and I'm glad we don't have it.
That said, arguing which method (long imprisonment or execution) is cheaper seems disingenuous to me. If it's proven that the death penalty is more expensive, then does it suddenly become more just if you figure out a way to make it cheaper?
No doubt, execution brings finality to the matter. SF argued that it might bring comfort of closure to the families of victims. I don't know, nor do I care to speculate how I might react to the murder of one close to me. That's why courts determine the disposition of a murder case. What if the family didn't want the killer executed? Should a court defer to them?
I think one is either comfortable with the state executing others in his/her behalf or not. I'm not personally. The possibility of a system tilted against a person's race or class, compounded by the possibility of a wrongful conviction, keeps me comfortably in the anti-death penalty camp.
That said, arguing which method (long imprisonment or execution) is cheaper seems disingenuous to me. If it's proven that the death penalty is more expensive, then does it suddenly become more just if you figure out a way to make it cheaper?
No doubt, execution brings finality to the matter. SF argued that it might bring comfort of closure to the families of victims. I don't know, nor do I care to speculate how I might react to the murder of one close to me. That's why courts determine the disposition of a murder case. What if the family didn't want the killer executed? Should a court defer to them?
I think one is either comfortable with the state executing others in his/her behalf or not. I'm not personally. The possibility of a system tilted against a person's race or class, compounded by the possibility of a wrongful conviction, keeps me comfortably in the anti-death penalty camp.
Of course, if the death penalty wasnt an option, then I'd be in favor of life in prison, with no parole. And IMHO, I strongly think that the prison system needs to be revamped. Multiple hours of rec time, a huge number of programs, weight rooms, etc. Do away with all of it. 1 hour of rec time a day, and you eat, sleep and **** in your cell. During that 1 hr. you can shower, make phone calls, visits, etc., but thats it. I wonder how much $$$ the state would save if they did away with the weight room and the programs that the inmates use as an excuse to get a bit more free time, because if they were really serious about turning the lives around, we wouldn't see so many repeat offenders.
Sound harsh? Sound mean and cold hearted? Will it upset the ACLU? Probably, but hey, dont do the crime if ya cant do the time. They got a roof over their head, 3 squares a day, despite the fact that it may not be the best meal, I'm sure its an approved one, medical care, etc. Anything else is a luxury.
On a side note...I wonder what the turn around rate at Sheriff Joes place in AZ is. Hmmm...... Maybe just maybe, if more places were like that, it'd give these guys something to think about.
Sound harsh? Sound mean and cold hearted? Will it upset the ACLU? Probably, but hey, dont do the crime if ya cant do the time. They got a roof over their head, 3 squares a day, despite the fact that it may not be the best meal, I'm sure its an approved one, medical care, etc. Anything else is a luxury.
On a side note...I wonder what the turn around rate at Sheriff Joes place in AZ is. Hmmm...... Maybe just maybe, if more places were like that, it'd give these guys something to think about.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Bill, wasnt talking about you
the rules here prevent me from naming names, but YOU were not who i was referring to
the rules here prevent me from naming names, but YOU were not who i was referring to
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Bill, your refusal to believe it doesntmake it untrue
the article was correct, you are wrong
there is no racial bias in assigning the death penalty, if anything, there should be MORE non-whites on death row than there is.
the article was correct, you are wrong
there is no racial bias in assigning the death penalty, if anything, there should be MORE non-whites on death row than there is.
Archangel M
Senior Master
I dont know if I really have a "point" in this discussion. I am for the DP. While the idea that some people are sitting on death row on circumstantial cases that could easily be overturned by DNA does bother me, Im not sold on the racial inequality argument. The statistics may be factual on their face, but there may be many "non prejudicial" explanations that could account for it.
Its accepted that there is a higher percentage of black offenders and black victims. This is due to unfortunate historic, economic, cultural and social influences NOT genetics. Statistically, many of these killings are due to the drug trade which (right or wrong) doesn't sell as a death penalty case as well as an innocent victim of a random crime will. If there was a study that compared say rape/murder convictions on a race vs race basis and proved that a black offender/white victim was X% more likely to result in a DP than a white offender/black victim that would be upsetting..but I havent found one like that. What is the rate of blacks killing whites compared to the other way around? Has there ever been a study? I dont claim to know, but numbers and stats are not a perfect representation of "reality".
And where is this bias coming from? If a jury decides at penalty phase, has there been a study of the racial composition of the jury? Is the claim that the Judges are racist?
I think it would be interesting (but time consuming) to take those stats I posted earlier with the raw numbers of executed criminals and read each case to see how they compared. In an ideal world I would then like to see all the convictions for similar crimes in those states and see what pans out.
As to politicians suspending the DP...call me cynical, but that doesnt convince me of anything except that they felt political pressure, which is far different from doing "whats right".
I probably should qualify all this by saying that Im only thinking about todays statistics. The "fairness" of how things were done in the 1920's-1960's in the Deep South are outside the scope of what Im thinking about here and now.
Just rambling I guess.
Its accepted that there is a higher percentage of black offenders and black victims. This is due to unfortunate historic, economic, cultural and social influences NOT genetics. Statistically, many of these killings are due to the drug trade which (right or wrong) doesn't sell as a death penalty case as well as an innocent victim of a random crime will. If there was a study that compared say rape/murder convictions on a race vs race basis and proved that a black offender/white victim was X% more likely to result in a DP than a white offender/black victim that would be upsetting..but I havent found one like that. What is the rate of blacks killing whites compared to the other way around? Has there ever been a study? I dont claim to know, but numbers and stats are not a perfect representation of "reality".
And where is this bias coming from? If a jury decides at penalty phase, has there been a study of the racial composition of the jury? Is the claim that the Judges are racist?
I think it would be interesting (but time consuming) to take those stats I posted earlier with the raw numbers of executed criminals and read each case to see how they compared. In an ideal world I would then like to see all the convictions for similar crimes in those states and see what pans out.
As to politicians suspending the DP...call me cynical, but that doesnt convince me of anything except that they felt political pressure, which is far different from doing "whats right".
I probably should qualify all this by saying that Im only thinking about todays statistics. The "fairness" of how things were done in the 1920's-1960's in the Deep South are outside the scope of what Im thinking about here and now.
Just rambling I guess.
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Twin Fist
Grandmaster
this is quite simply a stupid thing to say.
it DOES matter and we Do know why
there are lots of black on death row because they
1-commit a LOT of crime
2-they generally have an extensive criminal record
thats all
again, stick your head in the sand if you like, but on this issue, the FACTS are not on your side.
the dealth penalty goes to the people that comitt the most murders, and that group is, by percentage, not white.
deal with it
it DOES matter and we Do know why
there are lots of black on death row because they
1-commit a LOT of crime
2-they generally have an extensive criminal record
thats all
again, stick your head in the sand if you like, but on this issue, the FACTS are not on your side.
the dealth penalty goes to the people that comitt the most murders, and that group is, by percentage, not white.
deal with it
StrongFighter
Green Belt
Food 3 x a day needs to be 1 x a day in the a.m. then that is it for the day.
1 cup of mushy puree for breakfast with 1/2 cup of warm fetid water.
If they don't know what it is. Too bad for them.
If they want A.A. or another self improvement services.
Do it on their own dime, not the government's dime.
Getting a university diploma in prison on the government's dime. Nope. Too bad.
Reverse that government sponsored dime for students and not for inmates.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona has the right idea.
Electricity, hot and cold water would be banned for the inmates. Only the correctional guards and the wardens have air conditioning, warm heat. This not only saves taxpayers money. Inmates have no control over any aspect of their lives.
They decided to show the victims who was boss so now they have correctional officers who show them who is the BIG BOSS. Prisoners playing sports in the prison yard will be banned, in fact they would not see sunlight or trees or even breathe fresh air for the duration of their sentence.
Access to lifting weights. There is no reason for inmates to be all jacked up muscular. Put them on a severely restricted diet losing muscle mass and bone density. Push ups, pull ups and sit ups are banned too. If guards see inmates doing push ups or sit ups. Physical violence will be visited upon the inmates.
Prisoners would get x-rays of their vital organs as they lose weight then the mechanized sewing machine makes white circles on orange prison uniforms and smaller red circles patched on so that correctional guards can open fire on inmates trying to escape to murder and rape again.
Gang members would have their hands chopped off so they can not flash gang signs just right before they murder and rape then the gang members would have their feet chopped off so they can not attempt a prison escape. Gang tattoos would be sliced off with no anesthesia.
If I was the head of the Bureau of Prisons. The prison system would be revamped and scaled back with commonsense measures, hardcore security with no compassion. I would have run a very tight ship. Hard muscle bound correctional guards with dark sunglasses and M-14 rifles chambered in 7.62x51mm.
They have television sets in another states. That would be banned along with prison yards, weight rooms, sport bags containing football, basketballs, soccer balls will be thrown out.
I am from Texas and the TDCJ has the right idea. To hell with political correctness. Why reward the murderers, gang members and rapists with a cell of their dreams, steak and eggs for breakfast with milk, spaghetti for lunch with fruit cup for dessert, beef stroganoff and potatoes with gravy for dinner ? Why reward the murderers & rapists with college education while in prison and it is slapped on the taxpayers ?
They are there because they are the worst of the worst as it rightfully should be. They ain't no church choirboys.
THEY ARE MURDERERS AND RAPISTS. THAT IS WHAT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DOES NOT GET.
1 cup of mushy puree for breakfast with 1/2 cup of warm fetid water.
If they don't know what it is. Too bad for them.
If they want A.A. or another self improvement services.
Do it on their own dime, not the government's dime.
Getting a university diploma in prison on the government's dime. Nope. Too bad.
Reverse that government sponsored dime for students and not for inmates.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona has the right idea.
Electricity, hot and cold water would be banned for the inmates. Only the correctional guards and the wardens have air conditioning, warm heat. This not only saves taxpayers money. Inmates have no control over any aspect of their lives.
They decided to show the victims who was boss so now they have correctional officers who show them who is the BIG BOSS. Prisoners playing sports in the prison yard will be banned, in fact they would not see sunlight or trees or even breathe fresh air for the duration of their sentence.
Access to lifting weights. There is no reason for inmates to be all jacked up muscular. Put them on a severely restricted diet losing muscle mass and bone density. Push ups, pull ups and sit ups are banned too. If guards see inmates doing push ups or sit ups. Physical violence will be visited upon the inmates.
Prisoners would get x-rays of their vital organs as they lose weight then the mechanized sewing machine makes white circles on orange prison uniforms and smaller red circles patched on so that correctional guards can open fire on inmates trying to escape to murder and rape again.
Gang members would have their hands chopped off so they can not flash gang signs just right before they murder and rape then the gang members would have their feet chopped off so they can not attempt a prison escape. Gang tattoos would be sliced off with no anesthesia.
If I was the head of the Bureau of Prisons. The prison system would be revamped and scaled back with commonsense measures, hardcore security with no compassion. I would have run a very tight ship. Hard muscle bound correctional guards with dark sunglasses and M-14 rifles chambered in 7.62x51mm.
They have television sets in another states. That would be banned along with prison yards, weight rooms, sport bags containing football, basketballs, soccer balls will be thrown out.
I am from Texas and the TDCJ has the right idea. To hell with political correctness. Why reward the murderers, gang members and rapists with a cell of their dreams, steak and eggs for breakfast with milk, spaghetti for lunch with fruit cup for dessert, beef stroganoff and potatoes with gravy for dinner ? Why reward the murderers & rapists with college education while in prison and it is slapped on the taxpayers ?
They are there because they are the worst of the worst as it rightfully should be. They ain't no church choirboys.
THEY ARE MURDERERS AND RAPISTS. THAT IS WHAT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DOES NOT GET.
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The truth is a stupid thing to say?
Not by a whole lot. In 2007, it was a difference of 308 murders.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_05.html
Race of offender:
White Offender 2918 (white victim) + 245 (black victim) = 3,163
Black Offender 2,905 (black victim) + 566 (white victim) = 3,471
Of these, the highest proportion of death penalty awards are given to black offenders who kill white victims.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-pen...cts/death-penalty-and-race/page.do?id=1101091
It says that since 1977, 79% of all death penalties have been given to people who had white victims. But white victims are not 79% of the murder victims.
That's the facts.
I'm sorry you can't deal with it.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
amnestyusa?
yeah, thats not a biased source at all..............
wether you like it or not Bill, the world has LOTS of "conditional modifiers"
lets just SAY, i dont think it is legit, but lets just SAY that those figures are right.
whats most likely?
a massive conspiracy to punish the black man for having the temerity to kill a white person
or
the victim is taken into account.
blacks killing whites is often career thug killing innocent victim. Blacks killing blacks is often career thug killing another career thug
juries take that into account.
if you think they shoudnt, that's understandable.
doesnt matter but it is understandable.
now think about what you posted.
"White Offender 2918 (white victim) + 245 (black victim) = 3,163
Black Offender 2,905 (black victim) + 566 (white victim) = 3,471"
look at that
now remember that there are 3 TIMES as many whites as blacks in the country, and now you know why so many are on death row.
pretty much cased closed.
yeah, thats not a biased source at all..............
wether you like it or not Bill, the world has LOTS of "conditional modifiers"
lets just SAY, i dont think it is legit, but lets just SAY that those figures are right.
whats most likely?
a massive conspiracy to punish the black man for having the temerity to kill a white person
or
the victim is taken into account.
blacks killing whites is often career thug killing innocent victim. Blacks killing blacks is often career thug killing another career thug
juries take that into account.
if you think they shoudnt, that's understandable.
doesnt matter but it is understandable.
now think about what you posted.
"White Offender 2918 (white victim) + 245 (black victim) = 3,163
Black Offender 2,905 (black victim) + 566 (white victim) = 3,471"
look at that
now remember that there are 3 TIMES as many whites as blacks in the country, and now you know why so many are on death row.
pretty much cased closed.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
Brilliant. Now you've got a black market for nutrition. Order some body bags.
AA is a fellowship, not a service. It isn't funded technically; it's self sustaining through members passing the hat. Members on the outside donate a portion of their proceeds to help members on the inside. Self-improvement, by definition, means that people are improving themselves. That must be banned. Heaven forbid, someone goes to prison and makes some effort to figure why he's been a **** and tries to fix it.
Sheriff Joe is a self-serving demagogue operating on a mentality at par with a gang lord.
Like I said, he's basically a gang boss with a gun.
:BSmeter:
Sounds like gay porn to me.
Nothing more commonsensical than throwing out athletic equipment.
Too bad for Texas.
I didn't know prison was so much fun.
Knock of the PC conspiratorial crap. Before PC there was such a thing as common decency. That means that we don't compel our jailers to behave like common criminals just because they guard criminals. What you're suggesting here, not only is torture to the inmates -- you're suggesting that professional corrections officers be used as torture squads.
PC doesn't have squat to do with this. The penal system has always had a range of advocates and opponents. You invoke harshness and brutality as if its a new idea that hasn't been tried before. Nobody in this thread has said anything about coddling murderers.
I take information where I find it, and I do consider the source.
But in general, it is a very ugly trend in the USA on both the left and the right - impeach all data that comes from sources you don't like. It doesn't matter if it is right or wrong - if it comes from "those people" it cannot be accepted.
Truth is truth no matter where it is found. One job is to find out if it is true or not, not to reject it out of hand because one does not like what it says.
It does not have to be either one. It can also be bias on the part of the average, everyday citizen who serves on jury pools. Not a conspiracy. The general, basic, underlying racism that pervades our society.
What's closed is your mind. And that is sad. You're desperate to ignore the truth, like dog having his nose forced into his mess, you're twisting back and forth like crazy, anything to avoid confronting the truth. No point in taking this any further.
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