Execution Put On Hold

[sgtmac_46]

I agree with this. While it is only necessary to prove guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" to incarcerate, to me, that is not a high enough degree of certainty to end a person's life. I am all for capital punishment in cases of virtual certainty, where there is video, multiple unrelated eyewitnesses, DNA, or some other incontrovertible evidence. Doesn't matter how sensational or heinous the murder was. Murder is murder.

If the evidence is "beyond a reasonable doubt" but not absolutely indisputable, lock them up and throw away the key, and let the lawyers continue to look for a "reasonable doubt", if they wish. If the evidence is clear cut and indisputable, execute immediately.

I'm with you up to the indisputable standard. There is no such thing. There is 'beyond a reasonable doubt' because that is the highest standard we can meet in this universe, among human beings involving the use of evidence.

As for 'indisputable' it's silly, as obviously someone is going to 'dispute it'. Even if the evidence is overwhelming, it can be disputed simply by...disputing it. 'We've got film'.....'It wasn't ME, it was my evil twin'.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I hate to see my tax dollars going to put up and feed these people. Billions of dollars!?!?! Forget that..a really good bullet only cost about $0.35. Shoot him in the head. It's quick and painless and the government can give me back my money!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I hate to see my tax dollars going to put up and feed these people. Billions of dollars!?!?! Forget that..a really good bullet only cost about $0.35. Shoot him in the head. It's quick and painless and the government can give me back my money!

I vote for a long-drop and a quick stop. Rope is cheap, and you can reuse rope and gallows if necessary.

 

[arnisador]

Medical personnel refuse to participate in an execution:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2050737,00.html

If they don't find a work-around by midnight, the warrant expires and the execution is off (at least for the time being).

 

[michaeledward]

I heard about this on the radio. But it is odd that you found the article in a newspaper from England.

If these doctors have an ethical problem with completing the execution, they should not be working the government. It is offensive when Pharmacists refuse to prescribe birth control and emergency contraceptives on moral grounds. It is similarly offensive when Doctors refuse to complete their duties.

What is even more foolish, is that we can't find a drug that quickly and efficiently and painlessly terminates a human life? Please!

In the near future, I will need to euthanize my dog. It is a simple, quiet, painfree procedure (at least for the pup). Why can't we get a similar drug for humans. Foolish.

 

[Carol]

In the near future, I will need to euthanize my dog. It is a simple, quiet, painfree procedure (at least for the pup). Why can't we get a similar drug for humans. Foolish.

Sorry to hear about your dog

We do have a similar drug for humans, it's the same med - Sodium Pentobarbital. The pharmaceutical brand name is Sodium Pentothol (medical) and Euthasol (veterinary).

Something that I recall from Timothy McVeigh's execution, the Sodium Pentathol is administered to the prisoner in a fatal dose, followed by two other compounds, both in doses that if administered alone would be fatal.

 

[Mark L]

A few random thoughts ...

If it costs many millions per case to secure a death sentence, perhaps the process itself needs repair. Hold on, I'm not suggesting we take it lightly and fast track every capital case. Quite the opposite really, do it right the first time, conduct a thorough, mandatory appeal, then get on with it. I'm curious as to the relative expense of getting a conviction followed by a life sentence.

For the purposes of this argument, how is "cruel and unusual punishment" defined? Death is a fairly sanguine thing for the state to impose on a citizen, earned by being found guilty of the most heinous crimes. I would not condone the torture of these individuals, but it is a punishment, shouldn't it feel like one?

 

[michaeledward]

I'm curious as to the relative expense of getting a conviction followed by a life sentence.

Listed up thread was a link to the website for 'Floridians Against the Death Penalty'. On their site, they claim the following numbers.

According to the Miami Herald, it costs 2 to 6 times as much to kill one person than to incarcerate for life. (3.2 million versus $750,000 in Florida).

 

[Mark L]

Thanks Michael, I got that. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the gist was the cost was up front, I interpret that as getting the conviction and sentencing done. That the cost of room and board for 40 years was incidental when compared to the trial, sentencing, appeal, etc.

I'm in no way affiliated with justice system, and I'm curious as to whether the state and defense costs are significantly different in capital vs. non-capital cases. I wouldn't thinks so. I've scanned the site you mention, but haven't followed all of the contained links. Do they indicate where all of the additional expenditures go?

 

[MJS]

Seems like they're concerned about him waking up.

Only hours before the execution, however, both the anaesthetist and a second doctor called in as a back-up withdrew, concerned about a requirement that they intervene in the event that Morales woke up or appeared to be in pain during the procedure

However, it seems like thats really not going to happen according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection

The intravenous injection is usually a mixture of compounds, designed to induce rapid unconsciousness followed by death through paralysis of respiratory muscles and/or by inducing cardiac hyperpolarization.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, but I'm going to bet that it does not take place.

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

Thanks Michael, I got that. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the gist was the cost was up front, I interpret that as getting the conviction and sentencing done. That the cost of room and board for 40 years was incidental when compared to the trial, sentencing, appeal, etc.

I'm in no way affiliated with justice system, and I'm curious as to whether the state and defense costs are significantly different in capital vs. non-capital cases. I wouldn't thinks so. I've scanned the site you mention, but haven't followed all of the contained links. Do they indicate where all of the additional expenditures go?

I believe those figures are the lifetime incarceration totals. One of the arguments made by the Capital Punishment supporters when the cost argument is raised, is that it is the endless appeals that drive up the cost. The FADP group argues that this is not true.

As to why the costs are different at the first trial, I don't know, but I bet the web site would defend their claims.


I'm going off of recollection here ....

Annual charges to detain a person range from about 12,000 to 36,000 dollars annually, depending on the security level of the facility, and whether it is run locally, at the state level, or at the federal level. Certainly, a capital case conviction would be at the high end of those costs. Also, as the prisoner ages, the costs increase.

There is tons of interesting information on the web about this. One thing is beyond dispute. The costs of detaining people has increased significantly.

 

[Mark L]

I just spent an hour typing a really well thought out reply with citations from the www.fadp.org website and lost the damn thing because I hit the wrong key, damn! The second, and much shorter version:

The Lakeland Ledger in Florida was the primary source of information cited, reporting that death penaly cases are costing $18 million per execution. The reality is that multiple sources provided data indicating the prosecution of a captial case is more expensive than a non-capital case, ranging from $55K to $200K more, with the capital cases cited averaging around $300K each. Reference was made to other nebulous costs that are beyond calculation. No reference to appeals was presented. No data to back up the $18M per execution.

I interpret this as an opinion piece whose primary purpose was to grab a headline with an astronomical figure. I'd guess the LL believed its' readership too damned lazy to wade through the entire piece with a critical eye, rather focusing on the sensational headline as the take away message in lieu of the facts.

I am a supporter of the death penalty, although not an ardent one. I do have concerns about the equitable application of the most severe penalty, mistakes can and will be made, so spending the extra dough to make sure is not asking to much. The paradox is that you could say the same thing about any conviction and sentence, why not use caution everywhere. I haven't reconciled this in my mind, but if there is no reasonable doubt ...

Perhaps I am being naive, but the availability of the death penalty within many jurisdictions represents the will of the people, and only they can change it. But to do so they should be afforded an unbiased presentation of the facts.

 

[michaeledward]

I think the math used by fadp was about showing the effectiveness of the system, rather than calculating the costs of processing one criminal through the system. If they were to execute all of the death row inmates tonight, that 18 million dollar per execution number would, obviously, come more inline with the earlier quoted number.

"If the state has paid out x number of dollars, and we have had y number of executions ... is this system doing what the voters intended and are paying for. "

I think that is a legitimate argument. But I agree it is not an argument for or against the question you are asking.

I'm not sure there is an unbiased resource of information on the subject. But there are plenty that are not as position based as FADP.

Try www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

Here's a quiz from that site ... everybody loves quizzes, right?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=557&scid=60

 

[FearlessFreep]

Here's a chilling thought. When we talk about how much it costs to execute someone are we really talking about the value of someone's life?

If you knew you were innocent but you were on death row and were appealing and appealing and driving up the cost of having you on death row but not yet dead, at one point would you give up and say "well, I guess they've spent enoughon me for me to try to keep myself alive, I suppose I should just let them execute me now" How much is you life worth to you?

If you knew you wer guilty, would you be willing to die? You've already gone against society by your actions that put you on death row, do you care how much they spend as you fight to keep your life; at what point do you give up fighting to keep your life? How much is yor life worth to you?

If you're the realitive of a victim do you really want to be told "well, we're sorry your daughter was tortured, raped, and murderd but...executionis just to expensive so we're just going to let himstay in jail for the rest of his life." Do you really want to know t hat the measure of justice is based not on the society and community's moral and legal evaluation of what justice *is* and should or should not be, but on how much that justice costs

There is a lot of cost to the idea of letting someone living or condemming that person to death, morally, personally, in spirit, in who we are and who we like to believe we are and what we believe about justice and fairness. I don't really believe that monetary value and monetaru cost should really be a part of that debate

 

[Mark L]

Try www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

This site appears to be more fact based. They don't cite sources (I didn't look that hard), but it smacks of credibility more than the other. I learned a little bit, not enough to sway my position (I'm interested in justice, not economics), but I'll look more later.

 

[arnisador]

Indefinite delay:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/n...gin&adxnnlx=1140620582-rGZaIY7Mcvt3AMYg6Ituvg

Judge Jeremy Fogel of the United States District Court for the Northern District of California ruled Tuesday afternoon that the state must use a single lethal dose of barbiturates — five grams of sodium thiopental — to kill the condemned man, Michael A. Morales, and that the drug must be administered by a medical technician in the death chamber.

 

[MJS]

Indefinite delay:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/national/22execute.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1140620582-rGZaIY7Mcvt3AMYg6Ituvg

I figured it wouldn't go off. I'm sure it'll be a very long time, if at all, that he actually goes through the procedure.

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

Well ... I am opposed to the death penalty in all cases, but, if it is the law, the employees of the state should follow the law. If they have an ethic problem with the law, they should resign.

I understand a Federal Judge recently changed a rule that requires a Medical Professional has to actually administer the chemicals in the execution chamber. I can sort of understand how a doctor might have an ethical objection with pushing the plunger of the needle; the hyppocratic oath and all. But, I don't like it. Not one damn bit.

It may have been a very clever anti-death-penalty argument, but I don't like the slippery slope nature of it.

 

[Kenpoist]

www.afterinnocence.com

While not making any comments on this specific case, I will point out that the State of Florida has exonerated 25 convicted, death row inmates since 1972.

Also, Florida has spent more than One Billion dollars operating their death penalty system. In return, there have been 58 executions. To date, that is 18 Million dollars per execution.

http://www.fadp.org

All the more reason to execute them a little sooner and stop wasting the taxpayer's money on the Inmate Law School Program and all the other BS that goes on in prison.
The families of the victims's need closure, not to be strung along for 20 years waiting for these murderers' to die.

 

[MJS]

All the more reason to execute them a little sooner and stop wasting the taxpayer's money on the Inmate Law School Program and all the other BS that goes on in prison.

I agree. I was amazed at the number of programs that are offered to the inmates. Bible study, alcohol programs, narcotic programs, etc. IMHO, these are just excuses to get out of the cell for a few. I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that "I've found a new life behind bars" routine. If they were so interested in making their life better, I'd think that they'd enroll in these programs before they end up in jail, not after, and on the taxpayers dime.

The families of the victims's need closure, not to be strung along for 20 years waiting for these murderers' to die.

I certainly do not disagree, but I wonder how many inmates have been wrongly executed. IMO, the legal system is a mess. If the evidence is there, and there is no doubt in anyones mind, why keep them around another 20yrs, trying to sort it out and not giving the families closure?

Mike